Lincoln Lincoln Lies ?

There was far greater fear of that in the South. That was a major driver for keeping them enslaved, particularly in the Deep South. After they were freed and got the vote, well, the majority of the white population found ways to disenfranchise them and keep them as an underclass. Wasn't until the Civil Rights Act that this problem was addressed again by the nation. The response of the Deep South: Backing George Wallace "I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" in 1968.

Despite substantial black populations who now had the vote again (and of whom only 2% voted for Wallace) Wallace won 65.86% overall in Alabama, 38.65% in Arkansas (and all its electoral votes), 42.85% in Georgia (and all its electoral votes), 48.32% in Louisiana (and all its electoral votes), and 63.46% in Mississippi.

If they were so afraid, then why did they continue to grow the population while the North shrank it as fast as possible. Do you really think it was because of the immorality of slavery? If only.

This is a Civil War forum, those opinions, events, and figures are from 1968.
 
I suggest reading about how he handled Stephen Douglas, luring him into winning the Senate seat, but costing him the Presidency in the process.

Wow. So according to you, Lincoln never wanted to be a Senator. Stephen A. Douglas was about to retire from the Senate, but Lincoln lured him into running again. Douglas didn't want to win, but crafty ol' Lincoln lured him into winning against his will, knowing that when he lost the Senate seat he would win the Presidency because everyone's first choice for a nationwide office would be someone who couldn't win a statewide office.

How about that? Old Abe was much smarter than anyone has ever given him credit for. He could even see the future unfold. Do you believe he had a DeLorean time machine and went forward in time to see what would happen, then went back in time with a World Almanac and made the exact moves necessary to get himself elected?
 
If they were so afraid, then why did they continue to grow the population while the North shrank it as fast as possible. Do you really think it was because of the immorality of slavery? If only.

Because they were ENSLAVED. Keeping them that way was the problem, hence the war. It's all so simple to understand, so much easier than the post war Lost Cause spin.

As for the North shrinking it, I doubt that, the black population increased postwar and Southerners drove many out in the post war period (comparing to the 1870 census for example.)

p.s. Your quote is in error, fix it.
 
Lincoln on the abolition of slavery in the District Of Columbia

While In Congress worked out a formula of conservative legislation for the abolition of slavery in the District Of Columbia.

Lincoln The President: Vol. 1 Springfield To Gettysburg Page 17
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I have no thought of recommending the abolition of slavery in the District Of Columbia.

Letter to Hon. John A. Gilmer
Dec. 15th, 1860
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I have never doubted the constitutional authority of congress to abolish slavery in this District; and I have ever desired to see the national capital freed from the institution in some satisfactory way.

Collected Works: Vol. 5 Page 192
Message To Congress
April 16th, 1862
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Lincoln was not evolving he was flip flopping!!

Respectfully,

William Richardson

edited by glorybound to remove red type which is reserved for moderators/staff. 6/18, 2058

WR,

I don't see that these are necessarily inconsistent, or evidence of lying, flip-flopping, or "evolution."

(1) When he was in Congress, he worked on a plan for compensated emancipation in the District of Columbia. As noted at this source,
Abraham Lincoln gave advance notice of his intention to draft a resolution to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia in the 30th U.S. Congress; however, he abandoned the effort after determining that he could not muster the necessary votes. Lincoln seemed convinced that Congress possessed the power to write such a bill into law, but he felt it should be done only with the consent of the citizens of Washington. The support of District of Columbia officials, although initially given, was withdrawn after leading Southern congressmen expressed strong objections to the legislation. Lincoln, a first-term member of the U.S. House of Representatives, had little personal influence.​

(1a) This is Lincoln in 1858, Lincoln-Douglass debates: From Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 4. / Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865.
August 27. 1858. In his joint debate with Senator Douglas at Freeport, in answer to certain questions which had been propounded by Douglass, Mr. Lincoln said: ``The fourth one is in regard to slavery in the District of Columbia. In relation to that, I have my mind very distinctly made up. I should be exceedingly glad to see slavery abolished in the District of Columbia. I believe that congress possesses the constitutional power to abolish it. Yet as a member of congress I should not, with my present views, be in favor of endeavoring to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, unless it would be upon these conditions: First, that the abolition should be gradual. Second, that it should be on a vote of the majority of the qualified voters of the District; and third that compensation should be made to unwilling owners. With these three conditions, I confess I would be exceedingly glad to see congress abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, and, in the language of Henry Clay, ``sweep from the capitol that foul blot upon our nation.''​


(2) After Lincoln won the presidential election, secession was brewing, and Congress was doing as much as possible to eliminate slavery as a divisive issue.

From Wiki here and here:

In the Congressional session that began in December 1860, more than 200 resolutions with respect to slavery, including 57 resolutions proposing constitutional amendments,[5] were introduced in Congress. Most represented compromises designed to avert military conflict. Mississippi Democratic Senator Jefferson Davis proposed one that explicitly protected property rights in slaves. One group of House members proposed a national convention to accomplish secession as a "dignified, peaceful, and fair separation" that could settle questions like the equitable distribution of the Federal government's assets and rights to navigate the Mississippi River.​
The Crittenden Compromise was an unsuccessful proposal introduced by Kentucky Senator John J. Crittenden on December 18, 1860. It aimed to resolve the U.S. secession crisis of 1860–1861 by addressing the grievances that led the slave states of the United States to contemplate secession from the United States.​
On February 27, 1861, the House of Representatives considered the following text of a proposed constitutional amendment:​
No amendment of this Constitution, having for its object any interference within the States with the relations between their citizens and those described in second section of the first article of the Constitution as "all other persons," shall originate with any State that does not recognize that relation within its own limits, or shall be valid without the assent of every one of the States composing the Union.​

Corwin proposed his own text as a substitute and those who opposed him failed on a vote of 68 to 121. The House then declined to give the resolution the required two-thirds vote, with a tally of 120 to 61, and then of 123 to 71.On February 28, 1861, however, the House approved Corwin's version by a vote of 133 to 65.The contentious debate in the House was relieved by abolitionist Republican Owen Lovejoy of Illinois, who questioned the amendment's reach: "Does that include polygamy, the other twin relic of barbarism?" Missouri Democrat John S. Phelps answered: "Does the gentleman desire to know whether he shall be prohibited from committing that crime?"​
On March 2, 1861, the United States Senate adopted it, 24 to 12.​


This is what Lincoln says to Gilmer:

Strictly confidential.​
Hon. John A. Gilmer: Springfield, Ill. Dec 15, 1860.​
I have no thought of recommending the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia, nor the slave trade among the slave states, even on the conditions indicated; and if I were to make such recommendation, it is quite clear Congress would not follow it.​

It's hard to call this a flip-flop, IMO. The US was facing a secession and pre-civil war crisis. In December 1860, District emancipation was not a prudent policy. I'll be blunt: trying to advance emancipation at that time would have been stupid, and suicidal for the prospects of maintaining the Union. Regardless, it would have been a waste of time, as Congress was obviously not going to pass such a bill anyway, and Lincoln clearly knew this.

(3) So... time goes by, and conditions make it possible for slavery to be ended in the District. Lincoln agrees with it, as he had earlier.

Again, I don't see lying or even flip-flopping or even "evolution." It seems he desired emancipation in the District a long way back, but it was only until conditions and circumstances made it possible that he could follow through on this desire.

- Alan
 
I suggest reading about how he handled Stephen Douglas, luring him into winning the Senate seat, but costing him the Presidency in the process. Lincoln was a master politician, maybe the best politically skilled person that has ever lived in America.

Lincoln lured Douglas into winning the Senate seat...?

That's just not believable.

- Alan
 
As for the North shrinking it, I doubt that, the black population increased postwar and Southerners drove many out in the post war period (comparing to the 1870 census for example.)

Just completed a check of this using the Virginia census browser for MA, PA, NY, and OH (trying to get a sample of populous states with a contiguous census history from 1800 or 1810 through 1860.) Found some entry errors in the Virginia data that need to be fixed, but crosschecks give correct values. The results were as I suspected. Colored populations grew in all of the states over the time period, and 3 of 4 states decade-to-decade every time. However, New York stagnated in the early 1800's. So Old Glory scores 25%.
 
It was Congress who ended slavery in the District of Columbia, as a result of the war.

Thank you Mr. Cash for all your valuable knowledge, but we disagree on several things. You interpret readings the way you want them to read, and I along with others interpret them another way. Does not mean you are wrong or that I am right. Mr. Cash I do understand the context and if it is ok with you instead of you telling me what I know and what I understand allow me to be the judge of what I know and understand, ok ? Now I have enjoyed the discussion and I look forward to many more discussions on a broad amount of subjects.

Respectfully,

William Richardson
 
It is if you have the proper model tinfoil hat and can tune in the right frequencies. :spin:

The snark is not called for. The Lincoln Douglas debates did undermine Douglas as a national politician and contributed to his defeat in the election of 1860. For years Douglas had promoted popular sovereignty, the idea that the residents of a territory could vote whether the territory was slave or free. The result of pretending a national issue was a local issue had been bleeding Kansas.

The South had a more extreme view: slaveowners could "carry" their slaves wherever they chose to. This view was "enshrined" if that's the word, in the Dred Scot decision.

During the debates Lincoln hit this point: Did Douglas agree with Dred Scot, therefore alienating northern Democrats who had backed popular sovereignty, but earning the loyalty of southern Democrats, or did he continue to hold to popular sovereignty, maintaining his support among northern Democrats, but being rejected by southern Democrats?

This wasn't particularly devious or cunning, but a pretty obvious question that in fact wreck the national Democratic party. If you like cunning and devious, Douglas's motivations for popular sovereignty, and th greasy way he tried to wriggle out of answering Lincoln are better examples.

Lincoln held to neither view, but argued that the Congress had the authority to decide if slavery should go into the western territories, and in the view of Lincoln and the Republicans, the Congress should refuse to allow the extension of slavery.
 
The snark is not called for. The Lincoln Douglas debates did undermine Douglas as a national politician and contributed to his defeat in the election of 1860. For years Douglas had promoted popular sovereignty, the idea that the residents of a territory could vote whether the territory was slave or free. The result of pretending a national issue was a local issue had been bleeding Kansas.

It may well be that in the Lincoln/Douglas debates, Douglas wound up taking positions that would prove unpopular later on.

But the Question is: Do you believe Lincoln "lur(ed) him (Douglas) into winning the Senate seat?"
 
I feel one of Lincoln's major goals early on was to remove a large portion of the Negros from America to another place. In order to do that, the slaves must be freed or bought. There was a lot of fear in the North regarding the negro population becoming out of control. For some odd reason, Mississippi didn't seem to mind it even though they were over 55%.

The south was wanting to restrict or eliminate the free black population just as much, if not more so, than the north. Restrictions on free blacks were the same or worse in the slave states, as in any northern states, while some northern states offered free blacks expanded rights they couldn't find elsewhere.

So I think that comparing free black laws to free black laws, supports the point that the slave states were comfortable with blacks only as slaves, but not as free people.

As far as the fear of the black population becoming out of control, well, the danger was greater in the south simply because the population was larger, more intermixed, and already under the tighter control of slavery, so the paranoia was greater as well. One did see a cycle of race riots in northern cities followed by stricter enforcement of the bond laws, but it seems the cycle had higher peaks in the south after insurrections.

Like a lot of people, Lincoln supported of the colonization movement, but that was hardly unique. It was widely supported, especially in the 1830s and 1840s, by both northerners and slave-owners, at least slave-owners in the upper south, and was one of the few things they could agree on.

The slave-owners who supported it, saw it as a way to remove free-born blacks and manumitted slaves so they wouldn't cause trouble among enslaved people. Really the only people who didn't support it were those, north and south, who felt that the expense wasn't worth it and blacks would be unhappy leaving for an unknown foreign country. The bad reports coming back from Liberia kinda supported their point. Others who didn't support it were the more radical abolitionists who came to decide that it was too much of a compromise, and they wanted slaves freed faster and able to stay here. But as has been noted, Lincoln steered clear of the more radical views, which is in part how he got elected.
 
For some odd reason, Mississippi didn't seem to mind it even though they were over 55%.

I think the "odd reasons" would be slavery before 1865, and Jim Crow thereafter. That worked for a specific part of the population until the 1960's.

There was a lot of fear in the North regarding the negro population becoming out of control.

I don't know that there was specifically a fear of "out of control" negroes. But to the point, I agree that the North was not initially open to black migration from the South, due to racial prejudice and fear of labor competition. But in the 20th Century, millions of blacks went North during the Great Migrations.


I feel one of Lincoln's major goals early on was to remove a large portion of the Negros from America to another place. In order to do that, the slaves must be freed or bought.

Lincoln did believe in colonization, but I think care must be exercised when using language such as "one of Lincoln's major goals early on was to remove a large portion of the Negros from America to another place." He supported colonization, but as far as I know, he did not support forced removal/deportation. I think it's more precise to say he supported voluntary colonization. (Or at least I think it's true that he did not favor deportation - I'm doing some research on that.)

- Alan
 
Thank you Mr. Cash for all your valuable knowledge, but we disagree on several things. You interpret readings the way you want them to read, and I along with others interpret them another way. Does not mean you are wrong or that I am right. Mr. Cash I do understand the context and if it is ok with you instead of you telling me what I know and what I understand allow me to be the judge of what I know and understand, ok ? Now I have enjoyed the discussion and I look forward to many more discussions on a broad amount of subjects.

Respectfully,

William Richardson

It's not a matter of a difference of opinion, it's simply fact. Congress ended slavery in DC, not Lincoln. Lincoln was very clear that he preferred compensated emancipation approved by the voters and didn't want to proceed in any other way. If you understood the context, then you wouldn't have accused him of flip-flopping and lying.
 
The snark is not called for. The Lincoln Douglas debates did undermine Douglas as a national politician and contributed to his defeat in the election of 1860.

So you are suggesting the conspiracy theory of throwing the senate election is true? :cautious: Otherwise, a heavy dose of snark is just what the doctor ordered.
 
I am curious as to what exactly, convinces W. Richardson Lincoln intended to end slavery in the District of Columbia, before the CW?
Before the war, Ending slavery was the sole perogative to Congress not the Chief Executive, as a member of Congress Lincoln did have the authority to work for whatever Constitutional legislation he wanted, i.e., what Lincoln wanted to do as a member of Congress, was not his perogative as President.(after the war started, of course, all bets were off the table)


P.S. as noted in his letter one only had to read the public record(especially the Lincoln Douglas Debates, the Cooper Unions Address and his First Inaugural) to know what Lincoln's views of slavery were(in some great detail) as a matter of conscience and, most importantly, the Law. Two different aspects(Private v. Public Duties) of the same problem that Lincoln was at great pains to keep separate, as events and responsibilities allowed
 

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