Proposed Invasion of Charleston harbor by the North

[wilber6150]

If they had been bringing food to Anderson it would have been a different story., however we know that wasn't the case.

Going in Circles again.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

Hey heres an idea why dont you read what the orders were.. Let me summarize to make it easy for you to understand...
heres part of the memo to Anderson...

Hoping still that you will be able to sustain yourself till the 11th or 12th instant, the expedition will go forward; and, finding your flag flying, will attempt to provision you, and, in case the effort is resisted, will endeavor also to re-enforce you

Supplies only unless resisted then the troops would be sent in to reinforce read the bloody OR's It only states that about twenty times....

 

[wilber6150]

NO HE COULD NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even that were true you wouldn't have been knocking yourself to prove that point by orders. Which I posted that stated otherwise.

GP

Show me on the order you posted where is says he can't not leave Moultre for the other forts...Do you read your posts...

 

[wilber6150]

Sonn you can post this till youir eyesturn yellow. The ORs are a sanitized version of events ___ The Yankeees did thir best to cover their butts. The fact remains I have posted the complete fleet with a few more than 200 recruits.

GP

Oh so the OR's don't count if they don't support your view point.. Typical...

 

[wilber6150]

Lets borrow Battallions post for this one...

HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY,​

Washington, D. C., April 4, 1861.​

Lieutenant Colonel HENRY L. SCOTT, A. D. C., New York:​

SIR: This letter will be landed to you by Captain G. V. Fox, ex-officer of the Navy, and a gentleman of high standing, as well as possessed of extraordinary nautical ability. He is charged by high authority here with the command of an expedition, under cover of certain ships of war, whose object is to re-enforce Fort Sumter.​

To embark with Captain Fox you will cause a detachment of recruits, say about two hundred, to be immediately organized at Fort Columbus, with a competent number of officers, arms, ammunition, and subsistence. A large surplus of the latter-indeed, as great as the vessels of the expedition can take-with other necessaries, will be needed for the augmented garrison of Fort Sumter.​

The subsistence and other supplies should be assorted like those which were provided by you and Captain Ward of the Navy for a former expedition. Consult Captain Fox and Major Eaton on the subject, and give all necessary orders in my name to fit out the expedition, except that the hiring of vessels will be left to others.​

Some fuel must be shipped. Oil, artillery implements, fuses, cordage, slow-march, mechanical levers, and gins, &c., should also be put on board.​

Consult, also, if necessary, confidentially, Colonel Tompkins and Major Thornton. Respectfully, yours,​

WINFIELD SCOTT.​

 

[wilber6150]

His point is if he can repeat something enough and keep circling around, he will tire me out and I'll let him have his way. Ain't gonna happen.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

You keep spewing out historical revisionism and I will be here to show people what really happened..Your brand of history didnt work in the other forum you played in so why do you think it would work here. We actually do research and can duck the BS when its being flung around..

 

[wilber6150]

Sonn you can post this till youir eyesturn yellow. The ORs are a sanitized version of events ___ The Yankeees did thir best to cover their butts. The fact remains I have posted the complete fleet with a few more than 200 recruits.

GP

Who is more likely to cover their butts the winners of a war or the losers trying to make their cause look cleaner then it was..

 

[KeyserSoze]

"Since the Constitution doesn't forbid the states to secede, the North found it necessary to violate the Constitution in order to suppress Southern independence. Lincoln was forced to usurp legislative powers by raising troops and money and by suspending the writ of habeas corpus; when Chief Justice Roger Taney ruled such acts unconstitutional, Lincoln wrote an order for Taney's arrest! He never followed through on that, but he did illegally arrest 31 antiwar members of the Maryland legislature and install a puppet government. He went on to crush freedom of speech and press throughout the North. Such was Lincoln's idea of 'preserving the Constitution' and government of the people, by the people, for the people."
Joseph Sobran

Sobran is as full of **** as a Christmas turkey.

 

[KeyserSoze]

It appears you do not read.

And still you have posted no real threats---

I know all I need to know Anderson and his men moved to Sumter WITHOUT ORDERS. I have that from Anderson and his boss the POTUS!!! This action makes Anderson the aggressor.

GP

Anderson was no fool. Militia were forming in Charleston. Engineers were surveying sites for batteries that covered Moultrie. Local papers were openly speculating on when the fort would be taken. Unionists like James Petigru warned Anderson of the threats to his forces. He saw the move as the only way to prevent bloodshed. As it was, all he managed to do was delay it since the South wouldn't be denied their war.

 

[KeyserSoze]

NO HE COULD NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even that were true you wouldn't have been knocking yourself to prove that point by orders. Which I posted that stated otherwise.

GP

Yes he could.

 

[KeyserSoze]

He did not. I have posted his last written order which does not give him that authority.

I have posted and stated many times Anderson said in his own words he had no orders to move to Sumter. Have you been reading the thread?

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

Orders to move? No. Authority to move? Yes. He commanded all the military facilities in the Charleston area.

 

[rpkennedy]

Oh so the OR's don't count if they don't support your view point.. Typical...

I was thinking the same thing, Wilbur.

R

 

[CSA Today]

Actually if you read what was being said about them, there was a lot of sympathy for them, and quite a few of them were looked at as fellow Southerners..When the first time food was cut off by S. Carolina some of the other seceeded states stepped in on the forts behalf to tell S. Carolina to reconsider and to treat the men with kindness..The only real one that had hatred directed towards him was Doubleday as he had the neve to actually vote for Lincoln in the election ..

It was scratched as graphiti somewhere, might have been a court house or jail .I read it years ago and just stuck with me..

It was scratched as graphiti somewhere, might have been a court house or jail .I read it years ago and just stuck with me..

Thanks, sounds like an interesting story -- it likely was graffiti. I have a cousin who is a SCV commander in Bennettsville and he may know something or be able to find out the story.
I live about 20 25 miles north of there in North Carolina now and there is a country church a few miles from me [Old Laurel Hill Presbyterian]. Sherman spent the night of 8 March 1865 in the church and the next morning some of men removed the pews to make a bridge over nearby creek, These men left graffiti on the walls of the Church – you can still see what they left in the bell tower.

"The Union government [of Lincoln] liberates the enemy's slaves as it would
the enemy's cattle, simply to weaken them in the conflict. The principle is
not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him
unless he is loyal to the United States."

London (England) Spectator, January, 1863 [after Emancipation Proclamation
announced].

 

[wilber6150]

So George lets look at the order you posted...

Washington, December 21, 1860.
Major ANDERSON,
First Artillery, Commanding Fort Moultrie, S. C.:
SIR: In the verbal instructions communicated to you by Major Buell,+ you are directed to hold possession of the forts in the harbor of Charleston, and, if, attacked, to defend yourself to the last extremity. Under these instructions, you might infer that you are required to make a vain and useless sacrifice of your own life and the lives of the men under your command upon a mere point of honor. This is far from the President's intentions. You are to exercise a sound military discretion on this subject.
It is neither expected nor desired that you should expose your own life or that of your men in a hopeless conflict in defense of these forts. If they are invested or attacked by a force so superior that resistance would, in your judgment be a useless waste of life, it will be your duty to yield to necessity and make the best terms in your power.
This will be the conduct of an honorable, brave, and humane officer, and you will be fully justified in such action. These orders are strictly confidential, and not to be communicated even to the officers under your command, without close necessity.#
Very respectfully,
JOHN B. FLOYD,


Where do you think its telling Anderson that he has to stay at Moultrie...

First paragraph...

SIR: In the verbal instructions communicated to you by Major Buell,+ you are directed to hold possession of the forts in the harbor of Charleston, and, if, attacked, to defend yourself to the last extremity. Under these instructions, you might infer that you are required to make a vain and useless sacrifice of your own life and the lives of the men under your command upon a mere point of honor. This is far from the President's intentions. You are to exercise a sound military discretion on this subject.

Its basically telling him to use his own judgement on holding onto the forts and if attacked how much he should hold out .. Nothing in this paragraph saying that the authorization to move to any of the forts is countermanded.. In fact, its reinforcing it as it says "to exercise a sound military discretion on this subject..Thus once again giving him authorization to make military moves.

Second paragraph...

It is neither expected nor desired that you should expose your own life or that of your men in a hopeless conflict in defense of these forts. If they are invested or attacked by a force so superior that resistance would, in your judgment be a useless waste of life, it will be your duty to yield to necessity and make the best terms in your power.
This will be the conduct of an honorable, brave, and humane officer, and you will be fully justified in such action. These orders are strictly confidential, and not to be communicated even to the officers under your command, without close necessity.#

This paragraph is telling him not to sacrafice his men in a hopless defense, so if besieged or attacked by overwhelming numbers its his duty to surrander under the best terms available..Again, it does not say that he can't move to any of the forts under his command or does it countermand his other orders which allows him to act before an actual attack begins..

So please explain where in this order is the part that is ordering Anderson to stay at Moultrie and not to move to Sumter or to any other fort he commands...

 

[CSA Today]

Sobran is as full of **** as a Christmas turkey.

I would have hoped that you would have offered something a little more substantive to support your contention.


GG Grandfather John M. Carlisle -- Chaplain 7th SC Inf.
GG Uncle James H. Carlisle – signer of SC Ordinance of Secession
G Grandfather Nathaniel L. McCormick—Private, Battery E 40th [3rd] N C Artillery
G Grandfather Thomas M. Bolton – Private, Co. G 19th Va. Inf.
G Uncle Dougald McCormick--Private Co. D 46th NC Inf.
G Uncle Duncan McCormick – Private, NC Home Guard
G Uncle Alexander Mc Cormick –1st Sgt, Co. B 6th Ms Inf.
G Uncle Murdoch McCormick—Private, Ms Home Guard
G Uncle James W. Bolton – Private, Co. B (Rives) Nelson Light Artillery (Va.), 1864 Co. G, 19th Va. Inf.
G Uncle Albert G. Bolton – Private, Co. F 27th Va. Inf.
G Uncle Alexander H. Bolton – Private, Co. D 7th Va. Inf.
G Uncle Lindsey C. Bolton – Private, Co. B. 1st Va. Reserves
G Uncle Thomas D. Boone – Captain,. Co. F 1st NC Inf.
G. Uncle James D. Boone -- Quartermaster sergeant, Co. F 1st NC Inf.
G Uncle James W. Boone -- Private, Co. D 59th (4th Cav.) NC, 1st NC Inf. Co. F
G Uncle Peter Lindsey Breeden—Captain, Co. E, 4th SC Cav.
G Uncle A.J. Breeden – Private, Co. E. 4th SC Cav.
Cousins –Daniel McKinnon, Luther McKinnon, John N. McKinnon, McKay McKinnon, Murdoch McKinnon -- all privates in Company E 40th (3rd) NC artillery [heavy]

 

[unionblue]

Yeah, good ol' Judge Holt. Whatever he says you can take it to the bank. Honest as the day is long.

Did you see the Conspirator?

Battalion,

The movie was playing in 1861?

Basing historical figures on a 21st century movie and your comfortable with that?

Really?
Unionblue

 

[wilber6150]

FORT MOULTRIE, S. C., December 11, 1860.
Memorandum of verbal instructions to Major Anderson,
First Artillery, commanding at Fort Moultrie, S. C.

You are aware of the great anxiety of the Secretary of War that a collision of the troops with the people of this State shall be avoided, and of his studied determination to pursue a course with reference to the military force and forts in this harbor which shall guard against such a collision. He has therefore carefully abstained from increasing the force at this point, or taking any measures which might add to the present excited state of the public mind, or which would throw any doubt on the confidence he feels that South Carolina will not attempt, by violence, to obtain possession of the public works or interfere with their occupancy. But as the counsel and acts of rash and impulsive persons may possibly disappoint those expectations of the Government, he deems it proper that you should be prepared with instructions to meet so unhappy a contingency. He has therefore directed me verbally to give you such instructions.*
You are carefully to avoid every act which would needlessly tend to provoke aggression; and for that treason you are not, without evident and imminent necessity, to take up any position which could be construed into the assumption of a hostile attitude. But you are to hold possession of the forts in this harbor, and if attacked you are to defend yourself to the last extremity. The smallness of your force will not permit you, perhaps, to occupy more than one of the three forts, but an attack on or attempt to take possession of any one of them will be regarded as an act of hostility, and you may then put your command into either of them which you may deem most proper to increase its power of resistance. You are also authorized to take similar steps whenever you have tangible evidence of a design to proceed to a hostile act.
D. C. BUELL,

But you are to hold possession of the forts in this harbor, and if attacked you are to defend yourself to the last extremity.

Two important things about this line.. First, its ordering Anderson to hold onto the forts in the harbor, not just Moultrie and secondly, its the reason that the second order was sent. They knew Anderson was a man of honor and if ordered to defend to the last extremity he would...

And probalby one of the most important lines recored in the OR's

You are also authorized to take similar steps whenever you have tangible evidence of a design to proceed to a hostile act.

The line that authorizes him to move to any of the forts if he thinks the S. Carolinians are planning an attack... And what kind of things would make the garisson think that the S. Carolina was planning on taking Sumter..Heres just one little example

Heres part of an OR from Captain Foster...

I feel it my duty to inform you that on the last two nights steamers from town have remained in the close vicinity of Fort Sumter, apparently with the object of maintaining guard over the fort. On the first night, that of the 20th, only one came. She approached from the direction of town, as though running for the wharf, and her movements attracting the attention of the watchman, he awoke Lieutenant Snyder, who, when he went upon the ramparts, found her close under the west flank, apparently sounding. She afterwards moved off to a second position about six hundred yards from the fort, and remained during the night. She showed no lights. On the same night this or another steamer reconnoitered and remained around Castle Pinckney for some time, and when hailed by the night watch on the Castle as to what she wanted, some one replied, "You will know in a week." Last night two steamers kept watch around Fort Sumter.
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=001/0106

Alot is being made that these were verbal orders and somehow less binding then regular written orders. The problem with that argument was that it ignores the situation. Floyd wanted to ensure communication was kept secure from S. Carolinian eyes so Buell was made to memorize them before leaving to go Sumter and then ordered to personally tell Anderson what Floyd expected..It was insisted at the fort that a copy of these verbal orders be written down which Buell did for Anderson..Upon his return Buell also had them written down and then signed by off Floyd..It was this written copy that saved Anderson when Floyd wanted to press charges against him.

 

[unionblue]

I would have hoped that you would have offered something a little more substantive to support your contention.

CSAToday, no that is not hoped as that has already been done, numerous times on this thread and elsewhere.

The hope, as I see it, is more substantive to simply believe one's opinion without serious questions.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

 

[unionblue]

I not sure I get you point, but I do think it a bit odd that any people, anywhere, would voluntarily supply food or anything else save, perhaps, a lead sandwich to anyone deemed an aggressor by them.

"Since the Constitution doesn't forbid the states to secede, the North found it necessary to violate the Constitution in order to suppress Southern independence. Lincoln was forced to usurp legislative powers by raising troops and money and by suspending the writ of habeas corpus; when Chief Justice Roger Taney ruled such acts unconstitutional, Lincoln wrote an order for Taney's arrest! He never followed through on that, but he did illegally arrest 31 antiwar members of the Maryland legislature and install a puppet government. He went on to crush freedom of speech and press throughout the North. Such was Lincoln's idea of 'preserving the Constitution' and government of the people, by the people, for the people."
Joseph Sobran

Sorban got it wrong.

Let's see what the leading, Constitutional expert of the day said, a man who was present at the time when secession was first offered as an option for leaving the Union.

"The South contends that a state has a constitutional right to secede from the Union formed with her sister states. In this I submit the South errs. No power or right is constitutional but what can be exercised in a form or mode provided in the constitution for its exercise. Secession is therefore not constitutional, but revolutionary; and is only morally competent, like war, upon failure of justice."

Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, Roger Taney, stating up front that secession is not constitutional because there is no mode or form of it provided for it in the Constitution of the United States.

I'll take the Chief Justice on the scene over Mr. Sorban's 21st century opinion.

Unionblue

 

[wilber6150]

I am wondering the same thing----


The following list embraces the names, with armaments and troops, of Lincoln's supply fleet dispatched from New York and Washington to Charleston harbor, for the relief of Fort Sumter:-

Vessels of War
Steam sloop-of-war Pawnee, Captain S. C. Rowan, 10 guns and 200 men. The Pawnee sailed from Washington, with sealed orders, on the morning of Saturday, April 6.
Steam sloop-of-war Powhatan, Captain E. D. Porter, 11 guns and 275 men. The Powhatan sailed from the Brookyln Navy Yard on Saturday afternoon April 6.
Revenue cutter Harriet Lane, Captain J. Faunce, 5 guns and 96 men. On Saturday, April 6, the Harriet Lane exchanged her revenue flag for the United States navy flag, denoting her transfer to the Government naval service, and sailed suddenly on last Monday morning, with sealed orders.

The Steam Transports
Atlantic, 358 troops, composed of Companies A and M of the Second artillery, Companies C and H of the Second infantry, and Company A of sappers and miners from West Point. The Atlantic sailed from the steam at 5 o'clock on Sunday morning last, April 7.
Baltic, 160 troops, composed of Companies C and D, recruits, from Governor's and Bedloe's islands. The Baltic sailed from Quarantine at 7o'clock on Tuesday morning last, April 9.
Illinois, 300 troops, composed of Companies B, E, F, G and H, and a detachment from Company D, all recruits from Governor's and Bedloe's Islands, together with two companies of the Second infantry, from Fort Hamilton. The Illinois sailed from Quarantine on Tuesday morning at 6 o'clock.

The Steamtugs
Two steamtugs, with a Government official on each, bearing sealed dispatches, were also sent. The Yankee left New York on Monday evening, 8th, and the Uncle Ben on Tuesday night.

The Launches
Nearly thirty of these boats-whose services are most useful in effecting a landing of troops over shoal water, and for attacking a discharging battery when covered with sand and gunny bags- have been taken out by the Powhatan and by the steam transports Atlantic, Baltic and Illinois.

Recapitulation
Vessels Guns Men
Sloop-of-war Pawnee 10 200
Sloop-of-war Powhatan 11 275
Cutter Harriet Lane 5 96
Steam Transport Atlantic 353
Steam Transport Baltic 160
Steam Transport Illinois 300
Steamtug Yankee Ordinary Crew
Steamtug Uncle Ben Ordinary Crew
Total number of vessels 8
Total number of guns (for marine service) 26
Total number of men and troops 1,380

It is understood that several transports are soon to be chartered, and dispatched to Charleston with troops and supplies.
________________________
Those ships that were assigned specifically to Charleston.
The ships assigned were the steam sloop-of-war USS Pawnee, steam sloop-of-war USS Powhatan, transporting motorized launches and about 300 sailors (secretly removed from the Charleston fleet to join in the forced reenforcement of Fort Pickens, Pensacola, Fla.), armed screw steamer USS Pochaontas, Revenue Cutter USS Harriet Lane, steamer Baltic transporting about 200 troops, composed of companies C and D of the 2nd U.S. Artillery, and three hired tug boats. The rest of the ships listed in the New York paper went to Pensacola.

GP

Again, I have to ask do you actually read what your posting as information? Read the last paragraph of what you posted..I'll give you a hint, its a summary of what ships were actually being sent to Sumter.
A little more help...
The Atlantic and the Illinois and their troops were bound for Ft. Pickens and not Sumter. The only transport with troops heading to Sumter was the Baltic...
The Powatan was also transferred to the Pensacola expedition..
So according to your own figures the troops going to Sumter were the 160 on the Baltic, but I will give you 40 more as Fox said he had 200...

So with your own source Fox's expedition consisted of the USS Pawnee,USS Pocohontus, Revenue Cutter Harriet Lane, the steamer Baltic with 160/200 men, and three hired tug boats..Thats one heck of an invasion force...

So with the info in your list
Sloop-of-war Pawnee 10 200
Cutter Harriet Lane 5 96
Steam Transport Baltic 160
Steamtug Yankee Ordinary Crew
Steamtug Uncle Ben Ordinary Crew
Total number of vessels 5
Total number of guns (for marine service) 15
Total number of men and troops 456

So whos the one the spinning disinformation here?

This looks quite similar to the list I showed you when you asked me about it; and you said it was quite incomplete..

 

[wilber6150]

You are going in circles again.

See that is only your spin on history Anderson and his men took Sumter with force they were the aggressor.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

Anderson the Union commander moved troops under his command into a fort that was also under his command, and one that he was under orders to defend and that makes him the aggressor? Yeah whatever...