Southern unionism

[atlantis]

Would southern unionism have faded away if there had been no conscription? Is it not fair to view southern unionism as merely a reaction to conscription after the enactment of the first conscript law in contrast to the southern unionism that existed during the debates over secession.
Southern unionists also felt the harsh hand of union troops as they the ravaged the land, plundering/burning.

 

[archieclement]

Then give actual numbers of Northners who fought for the Confederacy. Yes some did but Professor Current gives actual sources in his book. Knight killed Confedrates and that's good enough plus he was appointed as a US Marshall in Southern Mississippi .
Leftyhunter

No being an outlaw does not make one either loyal or in service to county or Army they never joined at all.

Now certainly if going to look at people leaving Confederate border states to cross state lines to join Union army......... there certainly were Kentucky, Missouri, and Maryland regt/brigade who did same to cross from Union states to join Confederate Service.

Generally estimated at Kentucky 25-40000, Maryland 20-25000, Missouri 40,000. So your looking at roughly same number over 100k going both ways across state lines.

And in these cases we are referring to people from Union or Confederate states actually enlisting in the other service....not simply turning outlaw. Though I would assume likely 1000's of people from each sides border states that became outlaw/guerrillas to whoever was legal authorities of area, but were never actually in service of the other side at all. Arkansas often mentions outlaw bands made up of both sides deserters, that would be equally opportunity robbers and resist whoever looked for them.

 

[leftyhunter]

No being an outlaw does not make one either loyal or in service to county or Army they never joined at all.

Now certainly if going to look at people leaving Confederate border states to cross state lines to join Union army......... there certainly were Kentucky, Missouri, and Maryland regt/brigade who did same to cross from Union states to join Confederate Service.

Generally estimated at Kentucky 25-40000, Maryland 20-25000, Missouri 40,000. So your looking at roughly same number over 100k going both ways across state lines.

Countered by Union recruitment conservatively 50k for Ky, 110k for Mo and not sure about Maryland. Then again does are border states vs the 104k Southern born men actucame from the eleven states of tge Confederacy. The vast majority of the people in the border states stayed loyal to the Union. Yes a few men relatively speaking from the North did join the Confederate Army.
Leftyhunter

 

[archieclement]

Countered by Union recruitment conservatively 50k for Ky, 110k for Mo and not sure about Maryland. Then again does are border states vs the 104k Southern born men actucame from the eleven states of tge Confederacy. The vast majority of the people in the border states stayed loyal to the Union. Yes a few men relatively speaking from the North did join the Confederate Army.
Leftyhunter

??? What are you even saying, they were Union states

Surprise surprise likewise 135-187,000 from Tennessee served Confederacy, and 155,000 Virginians.......after all they were Confederate states despite any minority crossing over.....same as Union were Union......compared to 32-35k Virginians for union, and 31k Tennessee for Union.

Each sides states bordering the other had some significent crossovers. But were not remarkablely different in proportions and were minority compared to Union for Union or Confederate for Confederate states. If anything crossover was slightly higher from the Union states.

Edit as well numbers for Maryland 60-85k Union, and 25k Confederate, again comparable crossovers for union border state.

 

[leftyhunter]

??? What are you even saying, they were Union states

Surprise surprise likewise 135-187,000 from Tennessee served Confederacy, and 155,000 Virginians.......after all they were Confederate states despite any minority crossing over.....same as Union were Union......compared to 32-35k Virginians for union, and 31k Tennessee for Union.

Each sides states bordering the other had some significent crossovers. But were not remarkablely different in proportions and were minority compared to Union for Union or Confederate for Confederate states. If anything crossover was slightly higher from the Union states.

Except the Confederacy had less men to begin with so each white man who fought for the Union was a greater loss for the Confederacy. Also men of color mostly Southern born which was approx 170k men also is a form of Unionisim.

Leftyhunter

 

[archieclement]

The only border states of each side with less significant crossover seems Arkansas only 8-9k went union compared to almost 74k for Confederacy. It seems rather lower crossover proportion. Less then 1 to 7 is low compared to other bordering states.

 

[archieclement]

Except the Confederacy had less men to begin with so each white man who fought for the Union was a greater loss for the Confederacy. Also men of color mostly Southern born which was approx 170k men also is a form of Unionisim.

Leftyhunter

As they were non citizens in each side, slaves crossing over would certainly also seem opportunist. Particularly if they didn't end up enlisting.

 

[leftyhunter]

As they were non citizens in each side, slaves crossing over would certainly also seem opportunist. Particularly if they didn't end up enlisting.

Fighting for one's freedom is hardly opportunist. Approximately 170k men of color enlisted in the United States Colured Corps and made up a significant portion of the US Navy. A Confederate soldier wasn't overly concerned about the legal status of those trying to kill him.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

The only border states of each side with less significant crossover seems Arkansas only 8-9k went union compared to almost 74k for Confederacy. It seems rather lower crossover proportion. Less then 1 to 7 is low compared to other bordering states.

Again every white man who does Union blue is an irreplaceable loss for the Confederacy as they had a much smaller demographic pool to recruit or conscript from.
Leftyhunter

 

[archieclement]

Fighting for one's freedom is hardly opportunist. Approximately 170k men of color enlisted in the United States Colured Corps and made up a significant portion of the US Navy. A Confederate soldier wasn't overly concerned about the legal status of those trying to kill him.
Leftyhunter

Again i'd disagree, many slaves left to British in ARW because of offer of freedom. Seldom see any British or "loyalist" ideology attached to it, it was simply opportunity to be free. Neither would American colonists been overly concerned if facing ex slaves or native British allies I suppose.

 

[atlantis]

Fighting for one's freedom is hardly opportunist. Approximately 170k men of color enlisted in the United States Colured Corps and made up a significant portion of the US Navy. A Confederate soldier wasn't overly concerned about the legal status of those trying to kill him.
Leftyhunter

Were not some maybe many tricked, even forced into enlisting?

 

[leftyhunter]

Were not some maybe many tricked, even forced into enlisting?

Then show proof of that. Not seeing any evidence of that. Why women if color not seek dignity by fighting for their freedom?
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Again i'd disagree, many slaves left to British in ARW because of offer of freedom. Seldom see any British or "loyalist" ideology attached to it, it was simply opportunity to be free. Neither would American colonists been overly concerned if facing ex slaves or native British allies I suppose.

Said slaves did what any man of dignity would do which is fight for their freedom. Yes Lincoln took a page out of Lord Dunsmore in 1775 and nothing wrong with that.
Leftyhunter

 

[archieclement]

Said slaves did what any man of dignity would do which is fight for their freedom. Yes Lincoln took a page out of Lord Dunsmore in 1775 and nothing wrong with that.
Leftyhunter

Indeed I'd imagine leaving one slave holding country for another slaveholding country for promise of individual freedom.......probally indicates opportunism for their freedom, rather then support for the new slaveowning ideology......

 

[DanSBHawk]

Is it not fair to view southern unionism as merely a reaction to conscription after the enactment of the first conscript law in contrast to the southern unionism that existed during the debates over secession.

I'm curious as to why you suggest that unionism during the secession debates would be different from unionism during the war.

Isn't it possible that southerners that felt loyalty to the US during the secession debates, also felt loyalty to the US during the war?

I don't think southern unionism was some kind of impulsive reaction to confederate policy during the war. I think many southerners were genuinely loyal to the US. And unfortunately they were often persecuted by their neighbors because of that loyalty.

 

[uaskme]

Were not some maybe many tricked, even forced into enlisting?

Most were impressed. Impressed to be soldiers, build fortifications and grow Yankee cotton. Also most weren't paid or paid little. Forever Free to the Yankee was being forced back onto the Plantations and many Blacks thought their conditions were worse. Being robbed and raped probably had something to do with it.

Also the "Fight for their Freedom" fairytale. Yes Blacks used this opportunity to fight or otherwise to get freedom. However the EP was based on Military Necessity which excluded benevolence. None of it was based on the premise to help Blacks. It was to help the Norths War Effort.

 

[leftyhunter]

Indeed I'd imagine leaving one slave holding country for another slaveholding country for promise of individual freedom.......probally indicates opportunism for their freedom, rather then support for the new slaveowning ideology......

From a Union perspective that's irrelevant. An escaped slave is one less slave supporting the Confederacy by its labor. If a former slave takes up arms against the Confederacy that's a win for the Union. Why wouldn't slaves support an ideology that will liberate them?
Leftyhunter

 

[Rhea Cole]

Would southern unionism have faded away if there had been no conscription? Is it not fair to view southern unionism as merely a reaction to conscription after the enactment of the first conscript law in contrast to the southern unionism that existed during the debates over secession.
Southern unionists also felt the harsh hand of union troops as they the ravaged the land, plundering/burning.

The 51,000 Tennesseans who served in the Union army were not there in reaction to Confederate draft laws. A certain number of them had been drafted & then deserted to join the Union army.

The secession of West Virginia & the shooting war waged in the highlands of North Carolina were territories that Confederate governments never had full jurisdiction.

How the families of the 20,000 Tennessee USCT Family members fits into your scenario is ambiguous at best.

Another group that fits awkwardly into your depiction are the thousands of Tennesseean's CSA POW's & deserters who "swallowed the dog ( signed loyalty oath ) & returned home.

How do the 8,000 draft dodging Georgia Defense Force troops fit in?

 

[nc native]

In North Carolina, the mountain communities were not the only groups who showed support for the Union cause. In the central part of the state there were active antiwar groups like the Red Strings, Heroes of the Union and a large Quaker population that would encourage desertion and hide men from patrols looking to round up Confederate deserters. These Unionist groups had a strong effect on the communities they lived in and sapped the morale of their neighbors who supported the Confederacy not to mention the fact that they kept manpower off of the battlefields.

 

[Michael C. Hardy]

Maybe not totally fade away, but probably close. I can tell you in the mountain counties of western North Carolina that I study, not one man crossed the lines and joined the Union army until after conscriptions passes. Most of the men who did cross the lines did not do so until mid-1864, with quite a few of them in 1865 as the war ended.

 

[Library Lady]

The June prompt for my library's Adult Reading Challenge 2026 is "read a book with a color in the title." I've got this one picked out.

I'm interested in finding out more about them because what I already know about the gents who enlisted from my area does not match @uaskme 's description. What went on downstate could be different I suppose. The 29th was involved in the Battle of the Crater, and I'm 100% positive they weren't forced to dig that hole. They were also too busy taking part in the Petersburg and Appomattox campaigns to be growing cotton on anybody's plantation. They did get sent to Texas after Appomattox and may or may not have been in Galveston for Juneteenth. That's another thing I'd like to check into. The author got his BA in History from VMI. He was career military in the Air Force and taught American History at the Air Force Academy.