Marks I.D. on Ames Saber

[Bonedaddy]

A local antique store has an Ames Model 1860 Saber made in 1861 for sale. I am curious as to the meanings of the

letters and numbers on one of the branches of the hand guard. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Patrick H]

I'm clueless, but I'll be watching.

 

[JimW]

GGS is George G. Saunders (1856-1865) per:

https://www.americanswords.com/common-inspector-marks.html

Hopefully someone will know on the other markings.

 

[Glen_C]

Possibly an Indian wars era refurb, reissue but it might also be a prop number for Hollywood.

Just a WAG

GC

yay, we're back!

 

[Patrick H]

Under the GGS, the numbered stamp looks more like 1881 to me. A clearer picture would help experts evaluate.

 

[R. Porter]

Sword number 74, 2nd Michigan Cavalry, Company C?

 

[Bonedaddy]

Patrick H: I am pretty sure that the 1860 Ames saber was produced by Ames from 1857 or 1858 until the end of the war in 1865. Were they produced after 1865, thus an 1881 manufacture year? I will have to go back to the antique store to get a better picture.

 

[JackADriscoll]

Is it just my eyes or are the US and the date terribly off center

 

[R. Porter]

The sword looks ok to me. I think I've seen a marking like that on a sword before, that clunky I next to the M looks familiar. That bunched up 1861 looks like others I've seen. According to Wikipedia, the 2nd Michigan Cavalry was organized on October 2, 1861. If the sword was offered at a good price on eBay, I'd bid on it.

 

[Bonedaddy]

The antique store owner has the saber and scabbard, which is in pretty bad condition with several dents in it, priced at $650. Since I have been a good customer there for years, he might take $500 cash OTD. If the Michigan Cavalry connection could be definitely proven, does that ad a significant amount to the value? Were Ames Model 1860 sabers produced after 1865? I cannot find an answer to this in Mr. Thillman's book. Thanks.

 

[bayonet]

Markings of those types in that location were popular on European swords (mainly German States, Prussian) in the 19th Century. But I don't see why Europe would import Ames Swords when Europe had plenty of their own swords to go around. Many US Firearms made there way to Europe especially after the ACW, but swords doubtful. Unless you can find a source or evidence of any other Michigan Units marking their swords like that I'd pass on it. But for $500 it's a maybe! Also the cost to restore it if damaged is very low and maybe worth it.

 

[R. Porter]

I think after 1865 no more trooper's sabers were made until 1906 when a small number of the 1860 style were made with iron hilts. There were enough on hand at the end of the war that they were used into the 20th century. I think most of that use was ceremonial with little combat action during the Indian Wars period. For example, Custer's unit left them at the fort when they rode off to fight at the Little Bighorn. There was a substantially lighter version of the officer's saber authorized in 1872 but the trooper's version of that sword was not authorized.

As far as price goes, I might pass on that deal. I already have a few cavalry sabers and I'm not in a hurry to get one more. If you want a generic saber you can probably get a nicer one for less. If a Michigan connection is important to you and/or you want one with an early date you might go for that one. Unit marking on the knuckle bow is not common.

I am not a sword expert so you may want to get some other opinions before you make a decision.

 

[Glen_C]

Patrick H: I am pretty sure that the 1860 Ames saber was produced by Ames from 1857 or 1858 until the end of the war in 1865. Were they produced after 1865, thus an 1881 manufacture year? I will have to go back to the antique store to get a better picture.

It is certainly listed in the Ames catalog reprint of 1882, along with other army swords.

 

[Glen_C]

I think after 1865 no more trooper's sabers were made until 1906 when a small number of the 1860 style were made with iron hilts. There were enough on hand at the end of the war that they were used into the 20th century. I think most of that use was ceremonial with little combat action during the Indian Wars period. For example, Custer's unit left them at the fort when they rode off to fight at the Little Bighorn. There was a substantially lighter version of the officer's saber authorized in 1872 but the trooper's version of that sword was not authorized.

As far as price goes, I might pass on that deal. I already have a few cavalry sabers and I'm not in a hurry to get one more. If you want a generic saber you can probably get a nicer one for less. If a Michigan connection is important to you and/or you want one with an early date you might go for that one. Unit marking on the knuckle bow is not common.

I am not a sword expert so you may want to get some other opinions before you make a decision.

The 1906 have imported tang marked blades

 

[R. Porter]

The 1906 have imported tang marked blades

My model 1906's have "A.S.Co." On the ricasso but they all have grips so I can't see what's on the tang.

 

[Spathologist]

My model 1906's have "A.S.Co." On the ricasso but they all have grips so I can't see what's on the tang.

They are marked "Germany" or sometimes "C.E" for Carl Eickhorn on the tang under the grip.

 

[Spathologist]

It is certainly listed in the Ames catalog reprint of 1882, along with other army swords.

The US Government made no M1860 saber orders after 1865.

Ames might still have made/imported them, but not for US Government use.

 

[Glen_C]

The US Government made no M1860 saber orders after 1865.

Ames might still have made/imported them, but not for US Government use.

Left over inspected blades? The Ordnance book lists replacement sword parts.

 

[Spathologist]

Left over inspected blades? The Ordnance book lists replacement sword parts.

If blades were stamped with inspectors' initials, then they were made to fulfill a contract and accepted by the government. The piecemeal method of government inspection of saber components leaves open the possibility that perhaps some blades were inspected but not used to assemble complete sabers, but I don't think there could have been any large quantity of them. Saber contracts were notoriously late in delivery, and contractors were pushing everything out the door they thought might pass inspection.

I'm unaware of any contract to provide spare saber parts to the US Government post-war. There are none mentioned in the several histories of Ames. If you're aware of one, I would love to see it.

Given the glut of armaments post-Civil War and the extremely tight military budgets, I think it would be most likely that excess sabers were used to provide any required spare parts. This is supported by the fact that, of the over 203,000 light Cavalry sabers purchased during the Civil War, only 9,362 were left in service in 1905.

 

[Glen_C]

If blades were stamped with inspectors' initials, then they were made to fulfill a contract and accepted by the government. The piecemeal method of government inspection of saber components leaves open the possibility that perhaps some blades were inspected but not used to assemble complete sabers, but I don't think there could have been any large quantity of them. Saber contracts were notoriously late in delivery, and contractors were pushing everything out the door they thought might pass inspection.

I'm unaware of any contract to provide spare saber parts to the US Government post-war. There are none mentioned in the several histories of Ames. If you're aware of one, I would love to see it.

Given the glut of armaments post-Civil War and the extremely tight military budgets, I think it would be most likely that excess sabers were used to provide any required spare parts. This is supported by the fact that, of the over 203,000 light Cavalry sabers purchased during the Civil War, only 9,362 were left in service in 1905.

It was a page I was remembering but there are no blades mentioned