Lee's Optimal Re-Organization before Gettysburg (The Extra Brigades)

[Wizard of Cozz]

South Carolina:
View attachment 532341(June 24-25)
View attachment 532339
View attachment 532340
Georgia:
View attachment 532343
Florida:
View attachment 532342

Where was Nathan "Shanks" Evans troops around this time? I know they come into Charleston defenense after late July, but what were they doing before that?

 

[John Wolf Smith]

Where was Nathan "Shanks" Evans troops around this time? I know they come into Charleston defenense after late July, but what were they doing before that?

Evans was at Jackson serving Joe Johnston

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

The 8th North Carolina Infantry Battalion was the nucleus of the existing 66th North Carolina Infantry, which remained in NC. It may have served with Ransom's brigade in NC, but it sure didn't transfer out -- the 66th NC was organized under the auspices of being a State regiment, and remained in NC the entire war.

I'm going to fix that in my OOB, looks like Ransom has the 56th NC which I didn't have so I took 8th Battalion out and put 56th NC Regiment in.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

Evans was at Jackson serving Joe Johnston

I wasn't sure if he ever made it to Johnston or not. I saw a small mention of him being sent there and then he's back in Charleston soon after.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

So by my calculations with the help of @Stryker65 , If Lee gets the 4 brigades requested (Ransom, Cooke, Jenkins, and Corse) about 9k men, and a few other slightly different exchanges, Lee can head north with an army of 88,000 men.

That leaves.

Richmond w/ 4700 men under Elzey
- Wise's Brigade and a bunch of heavy Art

NC under Hill
- 3 brigades (Colquitt, Clingman, Martin)
- 21 companies spread over in the forts
- 8 other unattached regiments/battalions equivalent of 1.5-2 other brigades (not sure exact size of these)

SC under beauregard
- 2 brigades (Hagood and Walker)
- 5 other regiments/battalions
- 4 heavy art regiments/battalions
- 4 cav regiments

GA
- 1 brigade (Taliaferro)
- 4 other infantry regiments
- 3 Heavy Art regiments/battalions
- 5 cav regiments

FL
- 9 companies
- 2 cav units

Shenandoah Valley - NOT SURE
Army of Tennessee is rought 45,000 men + Buckner's E. Tennesee Command

 

[Stryker65]

NC under Hill
- 3 brigades (Colquitt, Clingman, Martin)
- 21 companies spread over in the forts
- 8 other unattached regiments/battalions equivalent of 1.5-2 other brigades (not sure exact size of these)

However, some of these may have been detached regiments from the brigades sent north to Lee, guarding railroad crossings and the like. The 44th NC had served this duty for over a year before moving to Richmond.

SC under beauregard
- 2 brigades (Hagood and Walker)
- 5 other regiments/battalions
- 4 heavy art regiments/battalions
- 4 cav regiments
GA
- 1 brigade (Taliaferro)
- 4 other infantry regiments
- 3 Heavy Art regiments/battalions
- 5 cav regiments
FL
- 9 companies
- 2 cav units

Two weeks after Lee moved into Virginia, the Siege of Charleston began. To counter the threat, the Confederate troops were reinforced by Colquitt's, Clingman's, Wise's, Evans's, Taliaferro's (from GA), and G. T. Anderson's brigades. Colquitt's and Clingman's brigades could only be moved from North Carolina because the four brigades you have going to Lee were extended to cover their territory in North Carolina (mostly Corse's brigade, sent to Hill). Without those troops in that territory, it is unlikely Colquitt and Clingman would be sent, which presents a problem to Charleston's safety.

Shenandoah Valley - NOT SURE

Along with the detachments from the ANV (cavalry and the Second Corps guards at Winchester), these forces would be guarding the Shenandoah:

Echols commands the 22nd VA, and the 23rd and 26th VA Battalions
Williams commands the 4th, 10th, and 13th KY Cavalry, 16th GA Cavalry Battalion, 1st Tennessee Cavalry, and 64th Virginia
Wharton commands the 30th VA SS Battalion, 45th VA, and 51st VA
McCausland commands the 36th, 60th, and 63rd VA
Jackson commands the 19th and 20th VA Cavalry
Gen. A. E. Jackson commands the Thomas Legion and SW VA reserves
Also present are the 8th and 21st Virginia Cavalry, the 13th Virginia Artillery Battalion, and seven light batteries.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

However, some of these may have been detached regiments from the brigades sent north to Lee, guarding railroad crossings and the like. The 44th NC had served this duty for over a year before moving to Richmond.

Correct, I was just noting the strengths that were in each dept.

Two weeks after Lee moved into Virginia, the Siege of Charleston began. To counter the threat, the Confederate troops were reinforced by Colquitt's, Clingman's, Wise's, Evans's, Taliaferro's (from GA), and G. T. Anderson's brigades. Colquitt's and Clingman's brigades could only be moved from North Carolina because the four brigades you have going to Lee were extended to cover their territory in North Carolina (mostly Corse's brigade, sent to Hill). Without those troops in that territory, it is unlikely Colquitt and Clingman would be sent, which presents a problem to Charleston's safety.

Yeah Charleston is in more trouble, BUT to me the rewards outweigh the risks, IF Lee wins at Gettysburg, even if it's just holding the field as Union retreats to say, Pipe Creek, then I'm almost certain Lincoln will recall some forces from somewhere. Thereby relieving pressure on other departments.

I do wonder what the point of ever reinforcing Johnston was. He literally sits on his thumbs and never uses the forces he ever gains, sending those reinforcements (Breckinridge's divisions, Jackson's CAV Div, Walker's Division, French's Division) Johnston's Army/Corps numbers 4 divisions by June, but never really is used, which seems like a real waste of resources. Been better to reinforce Bragg in Tullahoma or Lee even more in Gettysburg.

Along with the detachments from the ANV (cavalry and the Second Corps guards at Winchester), these forces would be guarding the Shenandoah:
View attachment 532422
Echols commands the 22nd VA, and the 23rd and 26th VA Battalions
Williams commands the 4th, 10th, and 13th KY Cavalry, 16th GA Cavalry Battalion, 1st Tennessee Cavalry, and 64th Virginia
Wharton commands the 30th VA SS Battalion, 45th VA, and 51st VA
McCausland commands the 36th, 60th, and 63rd VA
Jackson commands the 19th and 20th VA Cavalry
Gen. A. E. Jackson commands the Thomas Legion and SW VA reserves
Also present are the 8th and 21st Virginia Cavalry, the 13th Virginia Artillery Battalion, and seven light batteries.

Looks like about 6800 men. Was anything left in the valley to oppose them after the capture of Milroy's forces?

 

[Stryker65]

Yeah Charleston is in more trouble, BUT to me the rewards outweigh the risks, IF Lee wins at Gettysburg, even if it's just holding the field as Union retreats to say, Pipe Creek, then I'm almost certain Lincoln will recall some forces from somewhere. Thereby relieving pressure on other departments.

Definitely! It's still a possibility, though.

I do wonder what the point of ever reinforcing Johnston was. He literally sits on his thumbs and never uses the forces he ever gains, sending those reinforcements (Breckinridge's divisions, Jackson's CAV Div, Walker's Division, French's Division) Johnston's Army/Corps numbers 4 divisions by June, but never really is used, which seems like a real waste of resources. Been better to reinforce Bragg in Tullahoma or Lee even more in Gettysburg.

Looks like about 6800 men. Was anything left in the valley to oppose them after the capture of Milroy's forces?

Only as far up as near Washington, although the capture of Winchester led to the creation of the Union Department of West Virginia, and increased Union activity in Western Virginia AND West Virginia. Col W L Jackson launched a raid into WV in May or June, so they still had West Virginia cavalry after him.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

Definitely! It's still a possibility, though.



Only as far up as near Washington, although the capture of Winchester led to the creation of the Union Department of West Virginia, and increased Union activity in Western Virginia AND West Virginia. Col W L Jackson launched a raid into WV in May or June, so they still had West Virginia cavalry after him.

I'm curious, and you don't need to do a detailed OOB, but if you're Davis, how are you shifting troops in may, early June 1863?

 

[Stryker65]

I'm curious, and you don't need to do a detailed OOB, but if you're Davis, how are you shifting troops in may, early June 1863?

If I was Davis? These things first, not in relation to the ANV theater:
- Prod Johnston to go help Pemberton or find someone who can;
- Transfer Roane's Texas brigade and maybe Churchill's Arkansas division to Richard Taylor's command, and commence the Western Louisiana campaign as soon as Banks invests Port Hudson;

On this subject of the ANV:
- Send Corse's brigade and maybe the Fifteenth Virginia Cavalry to keep an eye on Suffolk, or maybe even a feint considering that Peck hasn't launched his campaign yet;
- Send Cooke's brigade (only) to Lee, as well as Jenkins's brigade. Wise's brigade, being mostly artillerymen, should remain at Richmond; MW Ransom's brigade should remain in NC in order to replace Colquitt's brigade, passing through en route to Charleston to replace Gist's brigade. Perhaps Ransom's brigade should then take over the Hanover-area posts.
- Have Fitz Lee's brigade reenact what they did in January, 1863 against Alexandria to shore off more troops
- Fill up W. L. Jackson's command, add the 8th and 21st Virginia Cavalry, and move them into the Shenandoah to gather supplies and replace the Second Corps regiments detached at and around Winchester. In general, Winchester is not THAT strategically important, so I could see abandoning the town entirely.
- Move the 1st MD Battalion back to Richmond to reform the Maryland Line
- I do agree that it would be beneficial to recruit Lang's brigade -- a consolidation with Trigg's brigade would be helpful. In that sense I would move Lang via train to Richmond, and use that same train to move back the detached regiments from the ANV back to that army. Replace Lang's brigade with the 10th Georgia Battalion, which can be assigned to Wright's Georgia Brigade.

On the subject of individual brigade reorganizations: I (Davis) would not suggest any changes, especially not before a major campaign such as this. Any changes would occur (and I am surprised that they did not occur) during the post-Bristoe months. Additionally, I (Davis) would be concerned about the Union massing of troops in Southern Virginia and Charleston, and would keep troops on standby (Clingman's, Ransom's, and Corse's brigades) for emergencies. But mostly, I (Davis) would be pulling my hair out in screaming at Johnston (over the telegraph) to get moving.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

If I was Davis? These things first, not in relation to the ANV theater:
- Prod Johnston to go help Pemberton or find someone who can;
- Transfer Roane's Texas brigade and maybe Churchill's Arkansas division to Richard Taylor's command, and commence the Western Louisiana campaign as soon as Banks invests Port Hudson;

On this subject of the ANV:
- Send Corse's brigade and maybe the Fifteenth Virginia Cavalry to keep an eye on Suffolk, or maybe even a feint considering that Peck hasn't launched his campaign yet;
- Send Cooke's brigade (only) to Lee, as well as Jenkins's brigade. Wise's brigade, being mostly artillerymen, should remain at Richmond; MW Ransom's brigade should remain in NC in order to replace Colquitt's brigade, passing through en route to Charleston to replace Gist's brigade. Perhaps Ransom's brigade should then take over the Hanover-area posts.
- Have Fitz Lee's brigade reenact what they did in January, 1863 against Alexandria to shore off more troops
- Fill up W. L. Jackson's command, add the 8th and 21st Virginia Cavalry, and move them into the Shenandoah to gather supplies and replace the Second Corps regiments detached at and around Winchester. In general, Winchester is not THAT strategically important, so I could see abandoning the town entirely.
- Move the 1st MD Battalion back to Richmond to reform the Maryland Line
- I do agree that it would be beneficial to recruit Lang's brigade -- a consolidation with Trigg's brigade would be helpful. In that sense I would move Lang via train to Richmond, and use that same train to move back the detached regiments from the ANV back to that army. Replace Lang's brigade with the 10th Georgia Battalion, which can be assigned to Wright's Georgia Brigade.

As to the army re-organization. Lee was always leery of losing "veteran" formations, but he'd been better off shuffling units in and out to rest and recuperate them, also allowing them to recruit back in their home states while they defend that state for a few months. A simpler re-organization that limits the brigade breakups are as follows:
- Send Heth's brigade back to Virginia it numbers 800 men and just doesn't have the size to be particularly useful in a campaign. It could man the breastworks at Richmond OR can do what you envision Corse doing. Basically trade this brigade for Corse. This also allows Lee to have a BG commanding a brigade instead of relying on a Colonel in Brockenbrough.
- Send Lang's FL troops to Richmond as you detailed. Again will do the same things you mentioned and again isn't large enough to be particularly useful in combat.

Sending those two in exchange for Cooke, Ransom, Jenkins, and Corse make sense. As to the worry about Charleston, I think their are other ways to get around that don't hamper the invasion.

On the subject of individual brigade reorganizations: I (Davis) would not suggest any changes, especially not before a major campaign such as this. Any changes would occur (and I am surprised that they did not occur) during the post-Bristoe months. Additionally, I (Davis) would be concerned about the Union massing of troops in Southern Virginia and Charleston, and would keep troops on standby (Clingman's, Ransom's, and Corse's brigades) for emergencies. But mostly, I (Davis) would be pulling my hair out in screaming at Johnston (over the telegraph) to get moving.

Here is how I see it from Davis' perspective. Davis thought he could defend everything. That was simply wrong. He has 3 main armies, and a fourth operation going on in the Trans-Mississippi under Taylor. The Confederacy has enough troops to reinforce ONE front, keep one other front stable, and he will have to stip the third front more than he likes.

I've always seen Vicksburg as lost by May 14th 1863. The retreat from Jackson all but ensures Vicksburg's capture. At that point, the Confederacy needed to cut it's losses. Troops that had been going to Johnston should of been shuffled to other commands. But the easiest way to reinforce Charleston, BEFORE Lee's troops return from their invasion would be to send "Shanks" Evans South Carolina troops as well as Stovall's Florida troops. You also have Gist and Wilson's GA troops. Any number of these can go to Charleston to help out with the defense. As soon as Johnston retreats from Jackson Davis has to begin to know Vicksburg is lost and make the necessary moves. I'm bringing Bragg back up to strength, shifting some troops to deal with Charleston and the East, and going all in on Lee's invasion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the troops in the Army of Relief did any fighting after Jackson, until after Vicksburg fell, when Sherman drove them again back out of Jackson.

I think the better move would of been to order Pemberton to break out and connect back with Johnston if possible, but I'm not sure on the viability of that.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

South Carolina:
View attachment 532341(June 24-25)
View attachment 532339
View attachment 532340
Georgia:
View attachment 532343
Florida:
View attachment 532342

You have been so helpful in this. Do you have the department of Middle and West Florida as well?

 

[Stryker65]

You have been so helpful in this. Do you have the department of Middle and West Florida as well?

There was no Department of West Florida as Pensacola and the surrounding area was under Union control; any Confederate operations in the area would come under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Gulf, of which this is the closest dated organization:

District of Middle Florida, unfortunately, has no organizational records for the month of June, but I was able to find these:

(June 13)

(July 22)

(July 30)

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

There was no Department of West Florida as Pensacola and the surrounding area was under Union control; any Confederate operations in the area would come under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Gulf, of which this is the closest dated organization:
View attachment 532726

District of Middle Florida, unfortunately, has no organizational records for the month of June, but I was able to find these:
View attachment 532727(June 13)
View attachment 532728 (July 22)
View attachment 532729(July 30)

What was in the department of Mississippi around this time i'm curious. You've been an amazing help BTW!

 

[Stryker65]

What was in the department of Mississippi around this time i'm curious. You've been an amazing help BTW!

Best I can give you is the organization for April, 1863 -- that's when the last Department organization (before Vicksburg's fall) is dated.

The department was of course commanded by General Pemberton

(HQ Columbus MS)
Second Military District was that of Vicksburg, composed of the forces engaged in the Siege, then including Loring's division, and also the 7th Tennessee Cavalry.

(HQ Port Hudson. This is of course before Maxey's, Rust's, Buford's, and Gregg's brigades departed to join the Army of Relief, thereby weakening Port Hudson sufficiently enough to allow Banks to invest the place.)

(HQ Jackson MS, George's brigade at Grenada)

(HQ Panola MS)

Between April and June, however, the District of the Gulf sent reinforcements (cavalry) to the department, these being the 2nd and 56th Alabama Cavalry and the 15th Alabama Cavalry Battalion, which arrived in early May, 1863. The 2nd Arkansas Cavalry joined from northern Mississippi, as did the 2nd Missouri Cavalry.

After the fall of Vicksburg and Port Hudson, General Chalmers took command of all field troops in the department, and organized them into a cavalry division, which was composed of the following, on October 11, 1863:

Chalmers's Division: Brig. Gen. James R. Chalmers
Chalmers's Brigade: Col. John McGuirk (3rd MSC)
- 2nd ARC: Capt. Thomas Cochran
- 1st MSPR: Lt. Col. Hugh L. B. Hovis
- 3rd MSC: Lt. Col. James A. Barksdale
- 5th MSC: Col. James Z. George
- 18th MSC Battalion: Maj. Alexander H. Chalmers
- 2nd MOC: Lt. Col. Robert A. McCulloch
- 7th TNC: Lt. Col. William L. Duckworth
- Willis's TXC Battalion: Lt. Col. Leonidas Willis
- 1 10-lb steel rifle, C, 14th MS Artillery Battalion: Lt. David Richards
Richardson's Brigade: Col. Robert V. Richardson (12th TNC)
- 12th MSPR Battalion: Lt. Col. William M. Inge
- 12th TNC: Lt. Col. John U. Green
- 13th (14th) TNC: Col. James J. Neely
- 14th (15th) TNC: Col. Francis M. Stewart
- Buckner (AL) Battery (men from 56th ALPR; 1 2.9-in rifle and 4 breechloading 2-lb guns): Lt. Henry C. Holt (CSN)
- Reneau (TN) Battery (2 6-lb guns): Capt. Baylor Palmer

 

[Stryker65]

@DixieRifles may have more information about the Mississippi forces around this time.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

@DixieRifles may have more information about the Mississippi forces around this time.

So around this time I'm still trying to piece together how the command structure worked, this is something I've gotten very interested in, and am putting google docs together to have for information for later.


For instance, am I correct that Lee was in command of both his Army and technically the theater down through NC.

Northern VA, Richmond, Southern VA, NC - Robert E. Lee
ANV - R.E. Lee
Richmond - Elzey
Southern VA & NC - D.H. Hill

South Carolina - Beauregard
MD1 - Ripley
MD2 - Hagood
MD3 - Walker
MD4 - Trapier

Dept of the West - Johnston
Tenn - Bragg
- E. Tennessee - Buckner
- AoT - Bragg
Mississippi - Pemberton
- AoV - Pemberton
- Hudson - Gardner
- AoR - Johnston

Lee wasn't over Beauregard at all was he? Like Lee was Lee commander of Eastern Theater or Just northern portion of it?

 

[Stryker65]

So around this time I'm still trying to piece together how the command structure worked, this is something I've gotten very interested in, and am putting google docs together to have for information for later.


For instance, am I correct that Lee was in command of both his Army and technically the theater down through NC.

Northern VA, Richmond, Southern VA, NC - Robert E. Lee
ANV - R.E. Lee
Richmond - Elzey
Southern VA & NC - D.H. Hill

South Carolina - Beauregard
MD1 - Ripley
MD2 - Hagood
MD3 - Walker
MD4 - Trapier

Dept of the West - Johnston
Tenn - Bragg
- E. Tennessee - Buckner
- AoT - Bragg
Mississippi - Pemberton
- AoV - Pemberton
- Hudson - Gardner
- AoR - Johnston

Lee wasn't over Beauregard at all was he? Like Lee was Lee commander of Eastern Theater or Just northern portion of it?

Lee was not the commander of the theater per se; he was simply the commander of the field army of the theater, and therefore his troop assignments took the most prominence, excepting those necessary for the continued maintenance of the other two departments.

Additionally, Army of Relief I would put on the same level as Tenn and Miss, just because it contained troops from both under a general senior to the commanders of both.

Also, the Trans-MS records are quite hazy, I have to reconstruct everything from battle reports (Little Rock Expedition, Milliken's Bend, Sabine Pass, Helena, West Louisiana Campaign, Honey Springs, etc.), but I can tell you that:
Dept. of Trans-MS: Lt. Gen. E. Kirby Smith
Dist. of West LA: Maj. Gen. Richard Taylor
Dist. of Arkansas: Lt. Gen. Theo. H. Holmes
Dist. of Indian Territory: Brig. Gen. Wm. Steele
Dist. of Texas: Maj. Gen. John B. Magruder

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

Lee was not the commander of the theater per se; he was simply the commander of the field army of the theater, and therefore his troop assignments took the most prominence, excepting those necessary for the continued maintenance of the other two departments.

Additionally, Army of Relief I would put on the same level as Tenn and Miss, just because it contained troops from both under a general senior to the commanders of both.

Also, the Trans-MS records are quite hazy, I have to reconstruct everything from battle reports (Little Rock Expedition, Milliken's Bend, Sabine Pass, Helena, West Louisiana Campaign, Honey Springs, etc.), but I can tell you that:
Dept. of Trans-MS: Lt. Gen. E. Kirby Smith
Dist. of West LA: Maj. Gen. Richard Taylor
Dist. of Arkansas: Lt. Gen. Theo. H. Holmes
Dist. of Indian Territory: Brig. Gen. Wm. Steele
Dist. of Texas: Maj. Gen. John B. Magruder

Do you have a rough lists of the different Depts and the Districts below them around this time period? Or a link to where I can get that information?

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

Lee was not the commander of the theater per se; he was simply the commander of the field army of the theater, and therefore his troop assignments took the most prominence, excepting those necessary for the continued maintenance of the other two departments.

Additionally, Army of Relief I would put on the same level as Tenn and Miss, just because it contained troops from both under a general senior to the commanders of both.

Also, the Trans-MS records are quite hazy, I have to reconstruct everything from battle reports (Little Rock Expedition, Milliken's Bend, Sabine Pass, Helena, West Louisiana Campaign, Honey Springs, etc.), but I can tell you that:
Dept. of Trans-MS: Lt. Gen. E. Kirby Smith
Dist. of West LA: Maj. Gen. Richard Taylor
Dist. of Arkansas: Lt. Gen. Theo. H. Holmes
Dist. of Indian Territory: Brig. Gen. Wm. Steele
Dist. of Texas: Maj. Gen. John B. Magruder

Never mind I found a book on amazon free on my unlimited that should help somewhat. Here's a better question is the Shenandoah Valley part of the Trans Allegheny dept. OR is is part of Western Virginia under Lee??

Thanks