Sumter Provocation

Whether they declare their independence or apply the theory of secession they accomplish the same thing, but not every Southern state referred to their leaving the Federal gov't as 'Secession.'

Twisting the history of the Revolutionary War in order to gain a favorable impression of the South's failed rebellion under the guise of secession is in no way 'the same thing.'

Its bad history right out of the gate and deceptive with historical fact and circumstances.

Frankly, it smacks of desperation.

Unionblue
 
Like I said when I started this thread, It would come down to the argument of secession being right/wrong, moral, legal, and the like. I personally don't think either administration is innocent in all of this. At the same time I don't think there is anything either side could do to stop the war and I don't think many of them wanted to stop it, including Lincoln and Davis.

Savez,

I agree with you that there was a legitimate dispute about the constitutionality of secession. I disagree though that there was nothing anyone could do to prevent war. The Constitution has peaceful ways to deal with these problems, as has been discussed previously on this thread. The politicians of the original 7 seceding states completely ignored those peaceful avenues and began immediate preparation for war. I'll grant you that by the time Davis got into office the train had already left the station and there was little he could do to stop it. By the time Lincoln got into office, there was absolutely nothing he could have done to stop it. The politician/plantation owners wanted war and that's what they were going to have.

- brass
 
Like I said when I started this thread, It would come down to the argument of secession being right/wrong, moral, legal, and the like. I personally don't think either administration is innocent in all of this. At the same time I don't think there is anything either side could do to stop the war and I don't think many of them wanted to stop it, including Lincoln and Davis. Also I still haven't heard which "history books" I'm suppose to be reading ???

Savez,

It always comes down to the argument of secession being right or wrong and Ft. Sumer was merely the flash point of that argument.

I have, and always will, maintain that the war was about slavery and the fear the South had over its containment and its eventual extinction. I will also always maintain that the South's leadership of the time chose to confront this fear by way of trial-by-combat, and went with unilateral secession knowing full well that this was not an established legal procedure, but an untested and untried theory, found nowhere in law or the constitution.

The Southern leadership KNEW that they had little chance if the went the way of established law or by way of the Supreme Court and the Constitution and surely did not want to trust the majority of the citizens of the US in a national referrendum on the question of secession. So they chose war because they believed that a weak federal government would be unable to stop them.

Their one, big mistake? The firing on Ft. Sumter and the way it galvanized the rest of the nation. One can scream that Lincoln 'TRICKED' the South, thereby inferring that Davis and the rest of the Confederate government were drooling idiots and couldn't even tie their own brogans, or that Davis and company KNEW that in order to get more Southern states off the fence and into the weak and understaffed Confederacy, they had to fire on the fort to fulfill that goal.

The fact of the matter is, we are left with a historical record, provided in exacting detail by M. E. Wolf and the ORs of the period that the South fired on Ft. Sumter and by this act, as predicted by Confederate Secretary of War Toombs, the rest of the nation went from a fairly passive stance on secession to a war-like frenzy after the nation's soldiers were attacked in a clearly owned federal fort.

The path taken by the South's leadership, the one it committed its people to, was the path of war, of which there can be no legal appeal, just as Chief Justice Taney had said.

Pick your own history books to read, Savez, pick two or three of them concerning Ft. Sumter and how it came about, and then do what the rest of us here have done. Come up with your own opinions and views and then argue and debate them here on this forum. Have fun with it and enjoy your time here with us when doing so.

The fact of the matter is, the history of the war has already been done and there is very little any of us here can do to change its outcome.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
Savez,

I agree with you that there was a legitimate dispute about the constitutionality of secession. I disagree though that there was nothing anyone could do to prevent war. The Constitution has peaceful ways to deal with these problems, as has been discussed previously on this thread. The politicians of the original 7 seceding states completely ignored those peaceful avenues and began immediate preparation for war. I'll grant you that by the time Davis got into office the train had already left the station and there was little he could do to stop it. By the time Lincoln got into office, there was absolutely nothing he could have done to stop it. The politician/plantation owners wanted war and that's what they were going to have.

- brass

brass napoleon,

You said it much better than I did in my previous post.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
Does Battalikon, have a history book that denies the facts of the events of Ft. Sumter, 1861? If not, then there is no difference in the facts of the events themselves, only differences of opinion as to how/why those events occurred as they did, In Fact.
 
Our friends are exultant over the prospect of the reinforcement of Sumpter & with all the other vigorous demonstrations of the Admn.-- I pray you to direct all the energies of Govt. to the maintenance of all the its rights where those rights have been assailed-- If blood must flow, better for it to flow at Charleston than at Washington--

From William Dennison to Abraham Lincoln. April 10, 1861

Anybody can pick out quotes from official records and letters from governors to make it look as though one side favored war over the other. This is not a shot at Mr. Wolfe, his research was great. I am just merely pointing out the fact that history is a lot of interpretation. It wasn't just Southerners that were itching for a fight.

Unionblue,
I'm not "screaming" anything. I am merely pointing out the reasons I believe Lincoln provoked the South into firing on Fort Sumter. I have no doubt they were looking for a reason. As for the history books thing, I was just joking because I keep getting told about the "facts" in history books. Charles w. Ramsdell's wrtten history goes along with my beliefs. I guess since it doesn't go along with OpnCoronet's ideas of "history" then his writings must not be "facts".
 
In hist First Inaugural Address, Lincoln has some cogent and well reasoned description of his duties and responsibilities as President, as prescribed by law.


"I take the official oath to-day with no mental reservations and wit no purpose to construe the Constitution or laws by any hypercritical rules."

"I hold that, in contemplation of universal law and the Constitution, the Union of these is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no governmnent proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever--it being impossible to destroy it except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself."

"It follows from these views that no State, upon its own mere motion, can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence, within any State or States, against the authority of the United States, are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances."
 
If war is to be the consequence of an attempt to provision Fort Sumter, war will just as certainly result from the attempt to maintain possession of Fort Pickens
I am clearly in favor of maintaining Fort Pickens and just as clearly in favor of provisioning Fort Sumter.
If that attempt be resisted by military force Fort Sumter should, in my judgment, be reinforced.
If war is to be the result I perceive no reason why it should may not be best begun in consequence of military resistance to the efforts of the administration to sustain troops of the Union stationed, under the authority of the Government in a Fort of the Union, in the ordinary course of service.

S: P: Chase March 29, 1861
 
From William Dennison to Abraham Lincoln. April 10, 1861

Anybody can pick out quotes from official records and letters from governors to make it look as though one side favored war over the other. This is not a shot at Mr. Wolfe, his research was great. I am just merely pointing out the fact that history is a lot of interpretation. It wasn't just Southerners that were itching for a fight.

Unionblue,
I'm not "screaming" anything. I am merely pointing out the reasons I believe Lincoln provoked the South into firing on Fort Sumter. I have no doubt they were looking for a reason. As for the history books thing, I was just joking because I keep getting told about the "facts" in history books. Charles w. Ramsdell's wrtten history goes along with my beliefs. I guess since it doesn't go along with OpnCoronet's ideas of "history" then his writings must not be "facts".

On April 3, 1861, Jefferson Davis wrote this to Braxton Bragg: "It is scarcely to be doubted that for political reasons the U.S. govt. will avoid making an attack so long as the hope of retaining the border states remains. There would be to us an advantage in so placing them that an attack by them would be a necessity, but when we are ready to relieve our territory and jurisdiction of the presence of a foreign garrison that advantage is overbalanced by other considerations. The case of Pensacola then is reduced [to] the more palpable elements of a military problem and your measures may without disturbing views be directed to the capture of Fort Pickens and the defence of the harbor. You will soon have I hope a force sufficient to occupy all the points necessary for that end. As many additional troops as may be required can be promptly furnished."

Considering this letter Grady McWhiney, "The Confederacy's First Shot," Civil War History, Vol. XIV, No. 1, March, 1968, wrote: "This letter indicates that Davis was willing to start the war. He would have liked to do precisely what Ramsdell claimed Lincoln did -- maneuver the enemy into firing the first shot -- but the Confederate President considered such a scheme, in his own words, 'overbalanced by other considerations.' Davis counseled action -- 'your measures may without disturbing views be directed to the capture of Fort Pickens' -- and the tone of his letter implied that he expected Bragg to take the fort should he fire the first shot."
 
If war is to be the result I perceive no reason why it should may not be best begun in consequence of military resistance to the efforts of the administration to sustain troops of the Union stationed, under the authority of the Government in a Fort of the Union, in the ordinary course of service.

S: P: Chase March 29, 1861

Of course. I don't think anyone here is arguing that they were idiots.
 
I embarked on the evening of Saturday, 5th instant. from Governors Island, at 6 oclock p. in., on a steam-tug, which transferred us to the steamer Star of the West. My command consisted of two hundred men, recruits from the depot, fifty of whom were of the permanent party. My officers were First Lient. W. A. Webb, Fifth Infantry; Second Lient. C. W. Thomas, First In- fantry, and Assist. Surg. P. CL S. Ten Broeck, Medical Department. On Tuesday afternoon, 8th instant, arms and ammunition were issued to all the men. About midnight same evening we arrived off Charleston Harbor, and remained groping in the dark until nearly day, whell we discovered the light on Fort Sumter, which told us where we were. The other coast light marking the approaches to the harbor had been extin- guished, and the outer buoy marking the channel across the bar gone. During the night we saw what we supposed to be the light of a steamer cruising off the harbor, but she did not discover us, as our lights were all out. Just before day we discovered a steamer lying off the main ship channel. As soon as they made us out they burned one blue light and two red lights, and, receiving no response from us, immediately I steamed up the channel. As soon as we had light enough we crossed the bar, and steamed up the main ship channel. This was on the first of the ebb tide, the steamer ahead of ns firing rockets arid burning lights as she went up. We proceeded without interruption until we arrived within one and three-quarter miles of Forts Sumter and Moultriethey being apparently equidistantwhen we were opened on by a masked bat- tery near the north end of Morris Island. This battery was about five- eighths of a mile distant from us, and we were keeping as near into it as we could, to avoid the fire of Fort Moultrie. Before we were fired upon we had discovered a red palmetto flag flying, but could see nothing to indicate that there was a battery there. We went into the harbor with the American ensign hoisted on the flag- staff, and as soon as the first shot was fired a full-sized garrison flag was displayed at our fore, but the one was no more respected than the other. We kept on, still under the fire of the battery, most of the balls passing over us, one just missing the machinery, another striking but a few feet from the rudder, while a ricochet shot struck us in the fore-chains, about two feet above the water line, and just below where the main was throw- ing the lead. The American flag was flying at Fort Sumter, but we saw no flag at Fort Moultrie, and there were no guns fired from either of these fortifications. Finding it impossible to take my command to Fort Sumter, I was obliged most reluctantly to turn about, and try to make my way out of the harbor before my retreat should be cut off by vessels then in sight, supposed to be the cutter Aiken, coming down the channel in tow of a steamer, with the evident purpose of cutting us off. A brisk fire was kept up on us by the battery as long as we remained within range, but, fortunately,~without damage to us, and we succeeded in recrossing the bar in safety, the steamer touching two or three times. Our course was now laid for New York Harbor, and we were followed for some hours by a steamer from Charleston for the purpose of watching us. During the whole trip downward the troops were kept out of sight whenever a vessel came near enough to us to distinguish them, and the morning we entered the harbor of Charleston they were sent down before daylight, and kept there until after we got out of the harbor again. From the preparations that had been made for us I have every reason to believe the Charlestonians were perfectly aware of our coming. We arrived in New York Harbor on the morning of the 12th instant, and disembarked at 8 oclock this morning, the V3th, by orders from Headquarters of the Army. The conduct of the officers and men under my command during the whole trip, and particularly while under fire, was nnexceptionable. Capt. John McGowan, commanding the steamer Sfar of the West, de- serves the highest praise for the energy, perseverance, and ability dis- played in trying to carry out his orders to put the troops in Fort Sumter. He was ably assisted by Mr. Walter Brewer, the New York pilot taken from this place. I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

CHAS. R. WOODS, First Lieutenant, Ninth Infantry, Commanding. Cok L. THOMAS, Assistant Adjutant-General, U. S. A., Washington. D. C.

This operation seemed pretty sneaky in my opinion. I don't understand why the firing on this ship didn't initiate war?
 
In his Inaugural Address, Lincoln continued: "I therefore consider that, in view of the Constitution and the laws, the Union is unbroken; and to the extent of my ability I shall take care, as the Constitution itself expressly enjoins upon me, that the laws of the Union be faithfully executed in all of the States. Doing this I deem to be only simple duty on my part; and I shall perform it, so far as practicable, unless my rightful masters, the American people, shall withold the requisite means, or in some Authoritative manner direct the contrary. I trust this will not be regarded as a menace, but only as the declared purpose of the Union that it will constitutionally defend and maintain itself[/B].
 
Fort Sumter as many other Federal installations did not become a Federal District (like the District of Columbia). It was still part of the territory of the State of South Carolina.
Of course, you can show some evidence to back up your claim? Like an official deed or document.
 
Unionblue wrote:


Like I said when I started this thread, It would come down to the argument of secession being right/wrong, moral, legal, and the like. I personally don't think either administration is innocent in all of this. At the same time I don't think there is anything either side could do to stop the war and I don't think many of them wanted to stop it, including Lincoln and Davis. Also I still haven't heard which "history books" I'm suppose to be reading ???
Texas v. White 1869 establishes unilateral state secession as illegal. That is a fact.
 
Texas v. White 1869 establishes unilateral state secession as illegal. That is a fact.

That should be noted as "after the fact". "

As are all Supreme Court rulings. As are, as a matter of fact, all court rulings other than temporary restraining orders. Courts cannot rule on questions that have not been asked.
 
Savez, sir;
You wrote:
From William Dennison to Abraham Lincoln. April 10, 1861

Anybody can pick out quotes from official records and letters from governors to make it look as though one side favored war over the other. This is not a shot at Mr. Wolfe, his research was great. I am just merely pointing out the fact that history is a lot of interpretation. It wasn't just Southerners that were itching for a fight.

I often get complaints because I post 'too much' on a subject. And, most reasons why I do post so much, is so that there is a space long before the target discussion topic/thread/post(s). I agree that history can be seen/digested/understood in so many ways --I do believe it is due to our own fault as we're not of those times (circa 1840-1880); and see from the 1940-2010 mind/judgment/observation. I find it easy to over analyze a document--when it should be at face value.

Having filed official reports myself. I stick with the facts. Who, what, where, when and how. Assuming why someone did what they did --is a waste of energy.
When that person is in front of you--you can ask for yourself as to why.

I do understand the desire to champion one side or another. As I mentioned on occasions, sir -- I have no relatives of the time involved in the American Civil War. Therefore, I enjoy the ability of soaking the whole war as a collective experience like a 'blanket' and made from battles, skirmishes, actions and such as 'patches' that creates the quilt.

Many members posting as we (you, I and in general) have different ways to look at the same thing. It isn't that one is better than the other in the incident we're studying in a 'snap shot' moment of history. Both sides (Union and Confederate) had good and bad; middle of the road, above the board and so forth--but, again we're dealing with human beings.

Comforted by the knowledge, that the Official Records of the Rebellion was assembled and worked on by Union as well as former Confederate officers, to whom invested their time to help assemble the records from Richmond, Montgomery Alabama and US War Department --I rather use the Official Records over someone's 30 year memory. And, even then -- the authors used the Official Records of the Rebellion to write their life story was in the Civil War.

But, I personally believe that reading the official records is the best documentation to be read and studied, as it was made the freshest and 'at the moment.' I am personally pleased that so many former Confederates worked on the Official Records of the Rebellion; as was hoped by the Union Government to make sure a more total story of what happened in the Civil War took place as; in the end --both the CSA and USA troops fought for us all in the end. We're here because of them, we're able to be divided in an opinion because we (in a general sense) are in the 'United' States and the opinion that divided the Confederacy and the Union states was settled and moved on.

Reference:
O.R.--GENERAL INDEX [SN #130]
PREFACE.
The civil war, the military records of which are contained in the publication known as the "Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies," extended over a period of more than four years. The armies assembled by the North and South were engaged in almost incessant hostilities over a theater of operations which embraced in its vast area dense forests and cultivated plains, mountain ranges and valleys, sea-coasts and sounds, lakes and rivers, bayous and trackless swamps. The armed participants in this great struggle were numbered by millions and the regiments by thousands.
[excerpt]
The work of compiling and publishing the civil war records was projected near the close of the first Administration of President Lincoln, and has been continued during the Administrations of succeeding Presidents, under the direction of Secretaries of War Edwin M. Stanton, Ulysses S. Grant, John M. Schofield, John A. Rawlins, William T. Sherman. William W. Belknap, Alphonso Taft, James D. Cameron, George W. McCrary, Alexander Ramsey, Robert T. Lincoln, William C. Endicott, Redfield Proctor, Stephen B. Elkins, Daniel S. Lamont, Russell A. Alger and Elihu Root.
[excerpt]
From the outset of the work there was a great deficiency of Confederate records. During the last year of the war the reports rendered by Confederate officers were generally meager and incomplete. Toward the close of hostilities many papers of great historical value were intentionally destroyed by their holders, and a still greater number was concealed. Others were burned with public buildings or were carried off by relic hunters, and in various ways the official Confederate files were depleted.

In view of the distrust with which the Southern people for a while naturally regarded the movements made by the Government with a view to the procurement of the records of the Confederacy, it is not surprising that the efforts of the Department to complete its Confederate files met at first with slight success or assistance. However, Marcus J. Wright, formerly a brigadier-general in the Confederate Army, was appointed July 1, 1878, agent for the collection of Confederate archives, and in this capacity he continued employed until the completion of the work. Through his efforts and tact the attitude of the Southern people toward the compilation became more cordial, and, as their confidence increased, records were brought out from their places of concealment and forwarded to the Department as gifts or deposited as loans. Purchases of collections of Confederate records have been made as follows:
From Marcus J. Wright, October 28, 1875 $2,000
From William P. Johnston, July 2, 1878 10,000
From Thomas L. Snead, July 3, 1878 4,000
From Thomas L. Snead, March 11, 1879 6,000
Total 22,000
The policy of purchasing records was soon abandoned, owing to the great expenditure it would necessitate and the unfair discrimination which such purchases would involve in respect to those who had gratuitously delivered up valuable collections to the Department; but, notwithstanding this change of policy, the war papers of many prominent Confederate as well as Union officers were subsequently donated to the Government. Among the notable collections in the possession of the War Department may be mentioned the records of the commands of the Confederate Generals R. E. Lee, Joseph E. ,Johnston, G. T. Beauregard, James Longstreet, Stephen D. Lee, Sterling Price, Leonidas Polk, E. Kirby Smith, J. B. Hood, James R. Chalmers, Samuel Jones, R. S. Ripley, A. P. Stewart and William Steele.

As the fact of these donations became generally known and confidence in the impartiality of the publication increased, numerous and constantly increasing contributions from all parts of the country followed. The former President of the Confederate States, Jefferson Davis, during his lifetime, and his widow after his death, afforded the Government access to his papers relating to the late war, and from this source were obtained copies of archives of the greatest historical value.
[end of excerpt]

As the magnitude of the task that had been undertaken became better appreciated and larger means were provided for its prosecution, other former Confederate officers were appointed to assist in the compilation of the Confederate archives, to represent the Confederate interests and to assure impartiality. Among these were Maj. Gens. Cadmus M. Wilcox, Charles W. Field, L. L. Lomax and Henry Heth, Col. E. J. Harvie and Maj. Jed. Hotchkiss, chief topographer of the Army of Northern Virginia.
[end of excerpt]


Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf
======================================================================================

Unionblue,
I'm not "screaming" anything. I am merely pointing out the reasons I believe Lincoln provoked the South into firing on Fort Sumter. I have no doubt they were looking for a reason. As for the history books thing, I was just joking because I keep getting told about the "facts" in history books. Charles w. Ramsdell's wrtten history goes along with my beliefs. I guess since it doesn't go along with OpnCoronet's ideas of "history" then his writings must not be "facts".
 

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