Laid-back Sherman

[dvrmte]

What K Hale said. And I wish the book Dvrmte mentioned gave footnotes of where in the OR these are.

There's an appendix in the book, but to be honest I didn't check the OR's or them.

These contain essentially the same info:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd...&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
page 145

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-2713
"On July 20 he ordered that any artillery positioned within range begin a cannonading, not just of the Confederate lines but also of the city itself, which still held about 3,000 civilians (down from 20,000 earlier in the spring)."

The Confederate fortifications circled the city and averaged about one mile out from the outskirts. Overshots?

Sherman knew there were civilians in the city. I just question a man that has the snarglies to bombard a city with civilians but doesn't have enough of them to admit he ordered it.

Why didn't the 3,000 or so civilians leave with the rest? Atlanta's mayor explained it to Sherman,
"As you advanced the people north of this fell back, and before your arrival here a large portion of the people had retired south, so that the country south of this is already crowded and without houses enough to accommodate the people, and we are informed that many are now staying in churches and other outbuildings. This being so, how is it possible for the people still here (mostly women and children) to find any shelter? And how can they live through the winter in the woods? No shelter or subsistence, in the midst of strangers who know them not, and without the power to assist them much, if they were willing to do so. This is but a feeble picture of the consequences of this measure. You know the woe, the horrors and the suffering cannot be described by words; imagination can only conceive of it, and we ask you to take these things into consideration."

I guess it can be said that Sherman showed some compassion in not burning the city with the residents still in them.

dvrmte

 

[dvrmte]

Theres nothing that proves that he was lying...What are they supposed to do ride up and tell the Confederates what parts of the city they were going to bombard?

Yes. At least don't wait until over a month after the fact to decide to be compassionate to the civilians.

He knew he was lying when he called them overshots. He ordered firing on the city but didn't want to admit it to Hood until he was called on it.

Another thing that bothers me is that Hood never complained about the shelling and mentioned that to Sherman in their bitter little letter trade. The mayor even asked Hood to try to stop the shelling of the city. Hood did supply about 1,500 rations daily to the most needy civilians.

 

[Baggage Handler #2]

What are they supposed to do ride up and tell the Confederates what parts of the city they were going to bombard?

Yes. ...

That too would be a very strange way to make war.
"Excuse, please, Mr Confederate officer, but we'd like to make a little attack over there on the third. If you wouldn't mind, could you make sure nobody's there at that time? We don't want to surprise anybody."

...Although, during VietNam, supposedly we'd issue NOTAMS (NOTice to AirMen) indicating where and when artillery barrages were scheduled so our planes didn't fly through them, but that's hardly a model way to run a war.

 

[dvrmte]

That too would be a very strange way to make war.
"Excuse, please, Mr Confederate officer, but we'd like to make a little attack over there on the third. If you wouldn't mind, could you make sure nobody's there at that time? We don't want to surprise anybody."

...Although, during VietNam, supposedly we'd issue NOTAMS (NOTice to AirMen) indicating where and when artillery barrages were scheduled so our planes didn't fly through them, but that's hardly a model way to run a war.

"Commanders, whenever admissible, inform the enemy of their intention to bombard a place, so that the non-combatants, and especially the women and children, may be removed before the bombardment commences. But it is no infraction of the common law of war to omit thus to inform the enemy. Surprise may be a necessity."

Sherman said that attacking the fortifications was useless, he planned to bombard Hood into submission. No grand attack, just a slow, constant, relentless, siege type bombardment. A warning would be all that would be required.

 

[M E Wolf]

Kenjcruz,

You wrote:

If it was a reminiscence then we probably can't be positive about Sherman's clairvoyance.

Aside from his fevered prose which is delightful, two things struck me in the passage. First, he understood the fundamental importance of the North's manufacturing and resource advantages and how that would evenutally doom the Confederacy. Secondly, he understood that the North had the will to win. I think the leaders of the Confederacy thought (hoped) that the Northers didn't have the stomach to fight - but they were wrong.

I agree with your post.

Politicians have their visions of what war is like and even if old veterans, it is truth that yesterday's veteran is not current with today's serving soldier. True, many things remain the same however weapons change things, to which ripples backwards as to change the military--even slowly but, change it does.

I think Margaret Mitchell's "Gone With the Wind," wished to publish this hard pill to swallow--that the South had 'classes' to which often removed them from the average citizen. Arrogance and pride, emotions easily fanned, touchy as to be easily offended --the acts of war started long before Lincoln was installed as Sherman said; the shots fired towards Fort Sumter before the actual declaration by Beauregard on behalf of the new Confederacy--what was believed to be a short affair turned into a four year bloody war.

Just some thoughts in agreement with your post.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

 

[Nathanb1]

I think Margaret Mitchell's "Gone With the Wind," wished to publish this hard pill to swallow--that the South had 'classes' to which often removed them from the average citizen. Arrogance and pride, emotions easily fanned, touchy as to be easily offended --the acts of war started long before Lincoln was installed as Sherman said; the shots fired towards Fort Sumter before the actual declaration by Beauregard on behalf of the new Confederacy--what was believed to be a short affair turned into a four year bloody war.

Just some thoughts in agreement with your post.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

Gee, M.E......you must be the other person who's actually READ Gone with the Wind and seen past the obvious "Lost Cause" foofoo. "I saw it in the window and I couldn't resist." Carol Burnett

 

[dvrmte]

Gee, M.E......you must be the other person who's actually READ Gone with the Wind and seen past the obvious "Lost Cause" foofoo. "I saw it in the window and I couldn't resist." Carol Burnett

I read the book a long time ago, I liked it. I liked the movie for other reasons.

Vivian Leigh was hot!

 

[Nathanb1]

Wonder how many of us have seen it on the big screen in full color? I was lucky to be around when it was re-released for its anniversary. 30th, I think. I still remember my friend crying because of the dead horses.

 

[dvrmte]

Wonder how many of us have seen it on the big screen in full color? I was lucky to be around when it was re-released for its anniversary. 30th, I think. I still remember my friend crying because of the dead horses.

Our school took us to see it when I was in middle school. All I remember was holding hands with my eskimo girlfriend and...

 

[Glorybound]

Carol Burnett as Scarlett, on her TV show.

 

[Nathanb1]

dvmrte---No PDA in the theatre on school trips!

Lee--Just the picture makes me hysterical!

 

[wilber6150]

Sherman said that attacking the fortifications was useless, he planned to bombard Hood into submission. No grand attack, just a slow, constant, relentless, siege type bombardment. A warning would be all that would be required.

There was no troops or anything in the city that was of military value, or public works whose destruction would cause the Confederates to surrander to the seige earlier? The city was just as much as a legitmate target as the outlying works.. Ummmm do people really have to be told that the artillary surrounding their city might be a danger to them? I would think after the first artillary shot struck within the city that it would be all the warning needed for the days after that..
Most of Shermans troops only had a blanket to keep warm, so its not like the citizens are going to face a artic winter..If they could survive so could people who would be allowed to bring their belongings with them, or given to them by the army from the store houses in the city.. So if Sherman doesnt bombard the city, this gives the Confederate troops a nice safe haven to stay until they are needed in the front lines; that would make no sense..

 

[Glorybound]

Saw the movie twice on the big screen in our neighborhood theater during the '60's. The scenes that stick with me are the Confederate wounded at the Atlanta rail yard, SHERMAN printed on the screen with flames in the background when the movie was starting again after intermission, and Scarlett beating her almost-dead horse with the riding whip, trying to get it to go further, as she catches sight of Tara in the night.

 

[Glorybound]

 

[Nathanb1]

:laugh2:I like the scene when Scarlett shoots the Yankee.:laugh2:

 

[K Hale]

I disliked the movie, like most movies... slept through part of it. I recall some guy screaming about having his leg cut off, and a little black pony. Or possibly some other color.

I guess other stuff went on at some point.

 

[wilber6150]

Sherman's orders for July 20, concerning Atlanta

SPECIAL FIELD ORDERS,
HDQRS. MIL. DIV. OF THE MISS., Numbers 39.
In the Field, near Decatur, Ga., July 19, 1864.
The whole army will move on Atlanta by the most direct roads to-morrow, July 20, beginning at 5 a. m., as follows:
I. Major-General Thomas from the direction of Buck Head, his left to connect with General Schofield's right about two miles northeast of Atlanta, about lot 15, near the houses marked as "Hu." and "Colonel Hoo."
II. Major-General Schofield by the road leading from Doctor Powell's to Atlanta.
III. Major-General McPherson will follow one or more roads direct from Decatur to Atlanta, following substantially the railroad.
Each army commander will accept battle on anything like fair terms, but if the army reach within cannon-range of the city without receiving artillery or musketry fire he will halt, from a strong line, with batteries in position, and await orders. If fired on fro the first or building of Atlanta no consideration must be paid to the fact that they are occupied by families, but the place must be cannonaded without the formality of a demand.
The general-in-chief will be with the center of the army, viz, with or near General Schofield.
By order of Major General W. T. Sherman:
L. M. DAYTON, Aide-de-Camp.

These orders basically say that the army will advance upon the city engaging in battle if opportunity appears. The advance will continue until the city is within artillary range; and if not fired upon by Confederates within the city then wait for orders, if fired upon then commence return firing without notice..There is nothing criminal or wrong with these orders..They are legitimate rules of engagement..

http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=076/0193

 

[Glorybound]

At the risk of commandeering the thread, one last post concerning "Went with the Wind" starring Carol Burnett, Tim Conway, Harvey Korman, Vicki Lawrence, Dinah Shore...for our younger viewers who may not have ever seen it.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/a1...-show-part-of-2-from-greatest-comedy-sketches

 

[dvrmte]

Sherman's orders for July 20, concerning Atlanta




These orders basically say that the army will advance upon the city engaging in battle if opportunity appears. The advance will continue until the city is within artillary range; and if not fired upon by Confederates within the city then wait for orders, if fired upon then commence return firing without notice..There is nothing criminal or wrong with these orders..They are legitimate rules of engagement..

Of course the Confederates fired first. That's a pretty good CYA order. Thanks for posting it. I hadn't found it yet.

It's been mentioned that the city of Vicksburg was bombarded as well. Does anyone know if Grant had any communications with Pemberton prior to the bombardment? I'm weak on alot of the western battles.

dvrmte

 

[wilber6150]

From Sherman on July 20

HDQRS. MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MISSISSIPPI,
In the Field, near Atlanta, Ga., July 20, 1864-6.10 [p. m.]
General THOMAS:
DEAR GENERAL: I have your of 12 m. I have been with Howard and Schofield to-day, and one of my staff is just back from General McPherson. All report the enemy in their front so strong that I was

in hopes none were left for you, but I see it is the same old game; but we must not allow the enemy to build a new system of fortifications. We cannot pass Atlanta without reducing it, and the more time we give them the harder it will be to carry. General Schofield is near the distillery, where the enemy is fortifying. General Howard is just where he first encountered the enemy, four miles back from Atlanta, and McPherson is on the railroad, about two miles and half out, but reports a line of breast-works, but does not seem certain. I wish you to press forward all the time, and thereby contract the lines. If we can shorten our line either to the left or right, we should attempt to break up West Point. I rather incline to think it best to swing to the right, but hope to-morrow's work may develop some weak park. The enemy attempted to sally against Cox, but were quickly repulsed. I saw the skirmishers of the other division of Schofield make a dash at a line of rifle-pits, carrying it and capturing about 100 prisoners. I was anxious to-day to prevent the enemy from making a new and larger line of breast-works than had been at first prepared, which is so near Atlanta that artillery could overreach and enter the town. All the prisoners captured by Schofield are of Hood's corps, though each division commander insists he has to fight two corps. All the ground I have seen is densely wounded, but the roads are good. We will to-morrow press at all points and contract our line, so as to spare a column for detached service. It seems to me Palmer can force the enemy to evacuate the works on this bank of the Chattahoochee or be captured. I will push Schofield and McPherson all I know how.
Yours, truly,
W. T. SHERMAN, Major-General, Commanding.

Seems from this message that he was concerned about artillary over-fire entering the town, kind of a strange thing to say from a man accused of murderously turning his artillary on civilians..
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/recordView.cfm?Content=076/0196