Quantrill's Raiders

[rhettbutler1865]

Very true. We can only imagine...

 

[Nathanb1]

I wonder what it was like to have been one of Quantrill's students back when he was a school teacher in Ohio.

I'm sure he was a fun guy and very nice. Takes war to bring out the psycho in some folks.

 

[hanna260]

I'm sure he was a fun guy and very nice. Takes war to bring out the psycho in some folks.

"Do monsters make war or does war make monsters?"- Laini Taylor

 

[rhettbutler1865]

True--maybe my opinion of Sherman would be softened if I knew more about him...

 

[hanna260]

True--maybe my opinion of Sherman would be softened if I knew more about him...

Pick up a biography! His memoirs, Marzaleck's book, Fighting Prophet, or Fierce Patriot would be a great place to start.

 

[rhettbutler1865]

Pick up a biography! His memoirs, Marzaleck's book, Fighting Prophet, or Fierce Patriot would be a great place to start.

Thanks!--here I come again, Amazon...

 

[Patrick H]

I'm sure he was a fun guy and very nice. Takes war to bring out the psycho in some folks.

Nate, I chuckled when I saw this response. It might be entirely correct, too, but I'll bet after his war time reputation was made there were a number of former students who were glad they didn't sass him in class!

 

[Scotsman]

Lane and Jennison were bad guys, too. Lane raided and burned towns in Missouri long before Lawrence. He was on Quantrill's death list, but he escaped. And even William Elsey Connelley (the Kansas historian who really demonized Quantrill in QUANTRILL AND THE BORDER WARS) said, in the very same book, that Jennison probably should have been hung. There were some very bad guys on the loose on both sides of the MO /Kansas border in those days.

How do you define "bad"? The motivations and actions of people operating along the Kansas-Missouri border differed . For instance, Lane's actions were different than Quantrill's. So, it would be difficult to lump them into a single category--especially one defined by a moralistic value.

 

[theoldman]

My husband was asking if Ben Butler was at the battle of Five Forks so everyone could have a full set of silverware.

 

[Patrick H]

Hi, Scotsman. Actually, I don't think Lane's actions were a lot different than Quantrill's. Lane might have been motivated by what HE saw as a morally superior stance, but he led raiding gangs that murdered, robbed and burned. When he finished with Osceola, Missouri, there were only about 200 residents and two buildings left in the town. He led raids against farms, too, during which property and stock were stolen and buildings were torched. These are the kinds of actions that earned him a spot on Quantrill's death list. McCorkle says there were four pianos found in Lane's Lawrence house, at least two of which were recognized by the raiders as having come from their friends' houses (that probably accounts for the scene in RIDE WITH THE DEVIL where we see the raiders driving back towards Missouri with a piano in a wagon). I think those are perfectly reasonable example of "bad". There were lots of bad actors on both sides of the MO-KAN border--and a lot of innocents caught in between them, too.

 

[Nathanb1]

Nate, I chuckled when I saw this response. It might be entirely correct, too, but I'll bet after his war time reputation was made there were a number of former students who were glad they didn't sass him in class!

And then again...teaching may have made him psycho! (Joke....I think it's pretty plain the war caused at least the majority of his problems).

 

[CSA Today]

My husband was asking if Ben Butler was at the battle of Five Forks so everyone could have a full set of silverware.

Butler was home by the time of the Battle of Five Forks, 1 April 1865. Grant had sent him home to "await orders" after his failure during the 1st attack on Fort Fisher in December 1864 – those orders never came.

 

[hanna260]

Butler was home by the time of the Battle of Five Forks, 1 April 1865. Grant had sent him home to "await orders" after his failure during the 1st attack on Fort Fisher in December 1864 – those orders never came.

How convenient.

 

[18thVirginia]

Hi, Scotsman. Actually, I don't think Lane's actions were a lot different than Quantrill's. Lane might have been motivated by what HE saw as a morally superior stance, but he led raiding gangs that murdered, robbed and burned. When he finished with Osceola, Missouri, there were only about 200 residents and two buildings left in the town. He led raids against farms, too, during which property and stock were stolen and buildings were torched. These are the kinds of actions that earned him a spot on Quantrill's death list. McCorkle says there were four pianos found in Lane's Lawrence house, at least two of which were recognized by the raiders as having come from their friends' houses (that probably accounts for the scene in RIDE WITH THE DEVIL where we see the raiders driving back towards Missouri with a piano in a wagon). I think those are perfectly reasonable example of "bad". There were lots of bad actors on both sides of the MO-KAN border--and a lot of innocents caught in between them, too.

How many people were killed in Osceola vs. how many in Lawrence?

What was the amount of property damage prior to the Civil War in Missouri vs. that in Kansas?

 

[18thVirginia]

How do you define "bad"? The motivations and actions of people operating along the Kansas-Missouri border differed . For instance, Lane's actions were different than Quantrill's. So, it would be difficult to lump them into a single category--especially one defined by a moralistic value.

Scotsman, I'm not a native Kansan and my father was born in Missouri and my great grandmother--in my avatar--was a friend of bushwhackers in Missouri. But I think there are some differences between what happened in Kansas PRIOR to the Civil War starting in 1861 and what happened during the war in Kansas and Missouri. And I think that often that the Kansas side is branded by John Brown before the war and some things about Bleeding Kansas get lost.

First, the original state capital in Kansas was in Pawnee, out near where Manhatten is, out on the beginning of the prairie. At various times Missourans poured into Kansas, sometimes by the 100s and sometimes by the 1000s to vote illegally for slave state status. So they moved the capital to Shawnee Mission because that's right next to Missouri and they'd have to travel less to go over the line and vote.

The Free Staters held their convention at Topeka, which you can see on a map is not as far west as Manhatten, but not just over the Missouri border.

Second, the free state Kansans were settlers, men who brought their families, wives and children to be settlers. The Missourans who came over were largely single men. So, if you're a free state Kansas family, you often had local officials who'd been elected by single white male Missourans who had ridden over to vote. If they decided to round up a crowd and burn your home and farm out and leave your family with nothing in the middle of a Kansas winter, what were you going to do--go to the illegally elected pro-slavery sheriff or the pro-slavery judge and complain?

I don't have the figures in front of me, but during the period of Bleeding Kansas, I think it's something more than $300,000 in property burned and I don't think we're talking pianos or silverware, I think we're talking farmhouses and livestock and families left destitute on the Kansas frontier.

The Missourans thought of Kansas as their entitlement and they didn't want to have a free state right next to them where their slaves could escape to and then be shepherded on the Underground Railroad to safety.

 

[Patrick H]

The thread is about Quantrill's raiders, so I think a look at this man is appropriate:

Coleman Younger is another of the Quantrill men who I find very interesting and somewhat difficult to understand. After his prison term in Minnesota, he wrote a short, interesting book titled WHAT MY LIFE HAS TAUGHT ME. I encourage all of you who are interested in the Missouri guerrillas to read it. It's a fast and entertaining read. It's available as a free e-book right here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24585/24585-h/24585-h.html

Cole was of a prosperous, respected unionist family and his father was the mayor of Harrisonville, Missouri. He makes no attempt to cover the fact that his father was a slave owner. He details a number of events very early in the war, including his initial service with Col. Upton Hays. He describes a number of events which eventually turn him to the guerrilla path, including the murder of his father and the burning of his mother's home. He gives good descriptions of life in the bush and of many Civil War events. I find all of these passages very easy to accept and compelling to read.

Things really get interesting when he describes his post-war life as an outlaw. You will all just have to decide whether you can accept the word of a convicted bank robber who has done his time, paid his debt to society and has "gone straight". I read a couple of passages in the latter part of the book and thought to myself: "He's not being truthful". But then I thought about it again and asked myself why he would need to lie after having paid for his crimes. I never came to a conclusion about some of his assertions, but they are fascinating to ponder.

Here's an example: We all know that Frank and Jesse James were the only two Northfield, Minnesota bank robbers who got away...correct? Cole Younger discussed this in his book and then floored me with his explanation. He said Frank and Jesse were never captured because they were never along on the raid in the first place! True? False? I don't know. I can imagine a scenario where another of the robbers might have announced himself as Frank or Jesse, to deliberately disguise his own identity. That seems plausible enough. I can easily imagine an eye witness telling the authorities: "The tall, lanky robber brandished his pistol and announced that he was Frank James". That's very plausible. But would the eye witness have been able to visually identify Frank James prior to the robbery? I doubt it. Remember this, too: When Cole wrote this book, Frank had long since come in and surrendered to the governor of Missouri. He had stood trial for murder and been acquitted. He had surrendered on the condition that he would not be extradited to Minnesota. Jesse was long since in his grave. All of that was ancient history by the time Cole published his book in 1903. So...why would Cole have felt the need to cover for Frank and Jesse? Cole and Frank were friends, but neither was at any particular risk any more, which complicates things when we search for answers, doesn't it?

This stuff is absolutely fascinating to ponder if you take everything you read on all sides with just a grain of salt...

 

[18thVirginia]

Missourans killed in the raid on Osceola - 17

Kansans killed in 2nd sacking of Lawrence - 185

 

[Patrick H]

How many people were killed in Osceola vs. how many in Lawrence?

What was the amount of property damage prior to the Civil War in Missouri vs. that in Kansas?

18th, I have no idea how many were killed in Osceola. I have read that roughly 200 were left. I've read that about 250 people were killed in Lawrence. I can't estimate the property damage on either side. Can you? Tell us if you can. I don't think anyone can.

For me, this is not about keeping score on who acted most badly. Too many of them acted badly!

I was challenged on my assertion that Lane was a bad guy. I believe he was. So was Jennison. So was Quantrill, for leading that raid on Lawrence--most likely for other actions, too. So were a number of his raiders--to the 10th power--for their actions in Lawrence, Centralia and Rawlings Lane. So were the border ruffians, who helped to start it all. So were many others on both sides, as I've stated. Tragically, civilians got caught between them again and again.

 

[Patrick H]

Getting back to the OP, "Black Flag: Guerrilla Warfare on the Western Border, 1861-1865" IMO is a good and objective read on that particular theater of operations.

This is a volume you've recommended previously, but I still haven't read it. I will try to correct that situation very soon. Thanks for reminding me!

 

[18thVirginia]

With all due respect, Patrick, I don't see threads where either Lane or Jennison are portrayed here as heroes. And in my Kansas high school history class, the teacher read from Bruce Catton about the scurrilous activities of the Jayhawkers during the Civil War, just so we'd understand there were two sides.

I haven't defended either Lane or Jennison and I don't see many threads here about them, but I've certainly read enough threads here about how really interesting the bloodlust of Quantrill and Anderson was. And seems like a lot of rationalizing of their psychopathic killing.

Here are the amounts of property destroyed in Bleeding Kansas:

Total: $450,001.70 that includes 78 buildings burned, 368 horses killed, and $37,349.61 worth of crops lost.

Is there a comparable figure for losses in Missouri prior to 1861?