Where did those guns go?

[52ndFandS]

I've only been to Ft Sumter once, and if I'm repeating someone else's question, i beg pardon.

There is that big battery in the the fort. At the time I was there was summer and it was painted black. Akin to standing directly in the the middle of the sun.

I was looking at the front page on here and the question was, 'Big guns, where am i?" or something to that extent. So I started thinking about that battery. I know the Endicott system was the reason for it being there, and I've seen the same sort of batteries at other forts.

What happened to those guns? As they are part of Sumter's history why have they not been reinstalled or replicas put in their place?

 

[Santee1821]

Almost all the guns which armed the Endicott batteries throughout the country were removed. A small number of forts have been able to source some guns from various places. For instance, Fort Moultrie near Fort Sumter has two light pieces mounted which were acquired in trades with - in one instance - a reserve armory in Rhode Island. Of the large disappearing mounts, I believe one fort in Washington has a 10-Inch gun which was in the Philippines - where several others can still be found.

As far as why not build replacements? Cost. They were very large complicated systems which would be very expensive to recreate. Even creating a fiberglass display-only replica would be hugely expensive for historical sites which only have so much cash to go around.

 

[USS ALASKA]

What happened to those guns? As they are part of Sumter's history why have they not been reinstalled or replicas put in their place?

Just to clarify, sir, are you asking about the ACW era weapons or the two "Battery Huger" 12-inch M1888 guns?

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

So I started thinking about that battery. I know the Endicott system was the reason for it being there, and I've seen the same sort of batteries at other forts.

I suspect the guns from most Endicott batteries nationwide were scrapped.

 

[RedRover]

Evidently ended up in a scrap drive int he early 1940s. According to the NPS, the Endicott battery at Ft. Sumter, "Battery Huger" had two big guns until sometime during World War 2:

When removed, turned in for scrap:

There's only a couple of these dissapearing guns left. Here's one at Battery Cooper near Fort Pickens, off Pensacola, Florida maintained by the National Park Service. It's a six-inch type, contributed to the park service by the Smithsonian Institution. The original guns mounted there were removed during World War I for use as railway guns in France.

12-inch gun M1895 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From Charleston Courier, April 11, 1941, training on the big 12-inch guns at Sumter's "Battery Huger" in the summer of '41:

and from 8-8-1941, some practice at these big guns:

By the time the war ended in 1945 Sumter looked like this:

From the National Park Service's acquisition in the late 1940s they've worked on cleaning the place up, and actually removed most of the World Wars period additions... From 1952:

Nor did all of Sumter's surviving Civil War veteran guns, displayed at various places, last through World War II either; here's one from Sumter that was sacrificed to scrap:

Lowell Sun, Lowell, Mass., 11-6-1942.

And another one:

Evening Star, Wash. DC, 1-15-1943.

 

[USS ALASKA]

I suspect the guns from most Endicott batteries nationwide were scrapped.

No M1888 or M1900 weapons survive. Some later Marks do however...

12 Inch Guns

1. M1895M1A4, Watervliet No. 1 on M1917 Barbette Carriage, Eng. Machine No. 31
Location: Battery Smith, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
2. M1895M1A4, Watervliet No. 6 on M1917 Barbette Carriage, Eng. Machine No. 30
Location: Battery Hearn, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
3. M1895M1A4, Watervliet No. 8 (spare tube)
Location: Battery Hearn, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
4. M1895, Watervliet No. 13 on M1901 Disappearing Carriage, Watertown No. 14
Location: Battery Crockett, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
5. M1895, Watervliet No. 27 on M1901 Disappearing Carriage, Watertown No. 15
Location: Battery Crockett, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
6. M1895, Bethlehem No. 8 (spare tube)
Location: Battery Crockett, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
7. M1895, Watervliet No. 37 on M1901 Disappearing Carriage, Watertown No. 16
Location: Battery Cheney, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
8. M1895, Watervliet No. 12 on M1901 Disappearing Carriage, Watertown No. 17
Location: Battery Cheney, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
9. M1895, Watervliet No. 16 (spare tube)
Location: Bottomside Area, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
10. M1895, Watervliet No. 36, with partially scrapped Disappearing Carriage
Location: Battery Wheeler, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
11. M1895, Bethlehem No. 7 on M1901 Disappearing Carriage, Watertown No. 2
Location: Battery Wheeler, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
12. M1895, Bethlehem No. 10 (spare tube)
Location: Battery Wheeler, Fort Mills, Corregidor, PI
13. M1895 Watervliet No. 19 on M1918 Railway Mount, Marion Steam Shovel No. 9
Location: US Army Ordnance School, Fort Lee, VA

https://cdsg.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/CDSG/CDSG%20WEBSITE%20UPDATES/CDSG%20Downloads/survive14.pdf

Second page

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[52ndFandS]

Just to clarify, sir, are you asking about the ACW era weapons or the two "Battery Huger" 12-inch M1888 guns?

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

Battery Huger's guns. And no need to say sur. I reserve that for my father.

 

[52ndFandS]

Thank everyone. I was just wondering. I know that fixed fortifications were not effective. Probably with the exception of the NIKE missiles at Ft. Mac Arthur in San Perdro, CA, which were way past gun emplacement.

 

[USS ALASKA]

As they are part of Sumter's history why have they not been reinstalled or replicas put in their place?

As there are no M1888s remaining, it would have to be replicas. Now take your thumb and your first two fingers, rub them together while chanting "Money Money Money"

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[52ndFandS]

As there are no M1888s remaining, it would have to be replicas. Now take your thumb and your first two fingers, rub them together while chanting "Money Money Money"

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

It doesn't work for me. Not even for gas.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Sirs, please see - https://civilwartalk.com/threads/ordnance-papers.206452/#post-2792696 - The Historic Guns of Forts Sumter and Moultrie. "What happened to them all? Tracing Fort Sumter's Guns Since 1865" Chapter 3. Starts at page 73. Paper focuses on ACW era weaponry.

HTHs,
USS ALASKA

 

[Library Lady]

The video about the big guns guarding the coastline was very cool to watch, but how well would they work against U-boats? I ask because, compared to surface vessels, they were the bigger threat in 1942. East Coast cities were slow to adopt blackout policies, so vessels leaving port at night were backlit by the city which made things much easier for the U-boats.

What kind of range did these big coastal guns have compared to the battleships of the day? If Bismarck had still been around in 1942, could it stand off far enough to cause trouble for Charleston but not be in much danger itself (from the shore batteries anyway)?

I'm not a gun person, so please just consider the source of these questions.

 

[52ndFandS]

The video about the big guns guarding the coastline was very cool to watch, but how well would they work against U-boats? I ask because, compared to surface vessels, they were the bigger threat in 1942. East Coast cities were slow to adopt blackout policies, so vessels leaving port at night were backlit by the city which made things much easier for the U-boats.

What kind of range did these big coastal guns have compared to the battleships of the day? If Bismarck had still been around in 1942, could it stand off far enough to cause trouble for Charleston but not be in much danger itself (from the shore batteries anyway)?

I'm not a gun person, so please just consider the source of these questions.

Not to get totally off subject on some tangent, but Charlston was sort of a catch all base. A lot of USCG, under the navy at the time, and a lot of 'tin cans'. I believe through the Korean War.

Not sure about u-boats, as I'm not sure what tge US tactics were were during the 'happy times'.

As to Castalia Guns I dunno. I'm not an ordinance guy. About the best I know is Ft Jefferson had a three mile range, but that was 19th century.

Do you know the max range on an Edicott? @USS ALASKA

[Edit] Thpught fixed masonry fortification was over by the end of the Edicott era, the German had had some pretty tough going at Narvik. They were not expecting the Norwegians to fight like that.

 

[USS ALASKA]

Do you know the max range on an Edicott? @USS ALASKA

Which one? After the ACW, the Board of Fortifications was led by Secretary of War William Crowninshield Endicott as the Endicott Board so began the Endicott Period. Later, they were known as Endicott and Taft era forts. Endicott refers not to a single weapon but rather a design.

Below is a not complete list of some of the weapons

Model Carriage Tube Caliber Units Page Gun Type(s)
M1901 disappearing rifle 12 inch 13 150 12-inch gun M1895, M1900
M1897 disappearing rifle 12 inch 35 148 12-inch gun M1895
M1897 altered gun lift rifle 12 inch 3 146 12-inch gun M1888
M1896 mortar mortar 12 inch 308 140 12-inch coast defense mortar M1890, M1912
M1896 disappearing rifle 12 inch 27 138 12-inch gun M1888, M1895
M1892 barbette rifle 12 inch 28 136 12-inch gun M1888
M1891 mortar mortar 12 inch 86 134 12-inch coast defense mortar M1886
M1888 gun lift rifle 12 inch 2 130 12-inch gun M1888
M1901 disappearing rifle 10 inch 16 128 10-inch gun M1895, M1900
M1896 disappearing ARF rifle 10 inch 3 126 10-inch gun M1888
M1896 disappearing rifle 10 inch 74 124 10-inch gun M1888, M1895
M1894 disappearing rifle 10 inch 35 122 10-inch gun M1888
M1893 barbette rifle 10 inch 9 120 10-inch gun M1888
M1896 disappearing rifle 8 inch 38 110 8-inch M1888
M1894 disappearing rifle 8 inch 26 108 8-inch M1888
M1892 barbette rifle 8 inch 9 106 8-inch M1888
M1905 disappearing rifle 6 inch 33 100 6-inch gun M1905, M1908
M1903 disappearing rifle 6 inch 90 98 6-inch gun M1900, M1903, M1905
M1900 pedestal rifle 6 inch 44 96 6-inch gun M1900
M1898 disappearing rifle 6 inch 29 94 6-inch gun M1897
Armstrong pedestal rifle 6 inch 8 92 6-inch Armstrong gun
M1903 pedestal rifle 5 inch 20 90 5-inch gun M1900
M1896 balanced pillar rifle 5 inch 32 88 5-inch gun M1897
Armstrong pedestal rifle 4.72 inch 34 86 4.72-inch Armstrong gun
Army/Navy pedestal rifle 4 inch 4 84 4-inch Driggs-Schroeder Navy gun
M1903 pedestal rifle 3 inch 101 74 3-inch gun M1903
M1902 pedestal rifle 3 inch 60 72 3-inch gun M1902
M1898 masking parapet rifle 3 inch 111 70 3-inch gun M1898
American Seacoast Defenses: A Reference Guide. by M A Berhow

American Seacoast Defenses: A Reference Guide Third Edition - Coast Defense Study Group

American Seacoast Defenses: A Reference Guide Third Edition This book is now available from the CDSG Press for $45.00. Click here for ordering information. ASD is a compendium of information designed to provide quick answers to questions that arise when visiting a coast defense site-What was...

cdsg.org

Good book - kinda pricey.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

The video about the big guns guarding the coastline was very cool to watch, but how well would they work against U-boats?

We will never know...

Fort Stevens was the only Endicott era fort to come under direct enemy fire. On June 20, 1942, the Japanese submarine I-25 surfaced off the coast and proceeded to shell Fort Stevens in the vicinity of Battery Russell. There were no U.S. casualties and damage to the fort was negligible. The battery commander made the decision not to return fire.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Fort_Stevens

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[Trooper "D"]

Evidently ended up in a scrap drive int he early 1940s. According to the NPS, the Endicott battery at Ft. Sumter, "Battery Huger" had two big guns until sometime during World War 2:


View attachment 520345

When removed, turned in for scrap:

View attachment 520352
View attachment 520353

There's only a couple of these dissapearing guns left. Here's one at Battery Cooper near Fort Pickens, off Pensacola, Florida maintained by the National Park Service. It's a six-inch type, contributed to the park service by the Smithsonian Institution. The original guns mounted there were removed during World War I for use as railway guns in France.

View attachment 520354

12-inch gun M1895 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From Charleston Courier, April 11, 1941, training on the big 12-inch guns at Sumter's "Battery Huger" in the summer of '41:

View attachment 520347

and from 8-8-1941, some practice at these big guns:

View attachment 520346


By the time the war ended in 1945 Sumter looked like this:
View attachment 520348

From the National Park Service's acquisition in the late 1940s they've worked on cleaning the place up, and actually removed most of the World Wars period additions... From 1952:

View attachment 520349
View attachment 520350




Nor did all of Sumter's surviving Civil War veteran guns, displayed at various places, last through World War II either; here's one from Sumter that was sacrificed to scrap:

View attachment 520343
Lowell Sun, Lowell, Mass., 11-6-1942.

And another one:

View attachment 520344
Evening Star, Wash. DC, 1-15-1943.

There is one like that next to Fort Point at the mouth of Yurba Buena Bay. Also known as San Francisco Bay. Right near the arch that was built to preserve Fort Point there where batteries all over the place. Huge ones up on the hillside of Marin County and on Angel Island. But the working one which I believe is a replica, is right near the sally port of Fort Point.
Cheers!

 

[52ndFandS]

There is one like that next to Fort Point at the mouth of Yurba Buena Bay. Also known as San Francisco Bay. Right near the arch that was built to preserve Fort Point there where batteries all over the place. Huge ones up on the hillside of Marin County and on Angel Island. But the working one which I believe is a replica, is right near the sally port of Fort Point.
Cheers!

Cheers back atcha!