Confusion about rank

[LtGenHenryWagerHalleck]

Forgive me if I posted this in the wrong place I am new here.

I understand that there were two ranking systems one for the volunteer army and one for the regular army. The date of the rank is used if there is a "tie" in rank. But did the regular army rank impact the chain of command during the war at all or did it only matter for after the war or would it be used if two people had the same date and rank would it then decide who is in command?

 

[H. J. Durgin]

Welcome .

 

[scooter748driver]

Welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums.

Are you referring to regular and brevet ranks?

 

[Dan Kohli]

The regulations mentions something about this. I'm going to look for it.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

My understanding is a regular rank was senior to the same volunteer rank, but this was rarely relevant.

The biggest difference is a regular rank was retained after the war while a volunteer rank expired.

I am curious about the OP username as to my knowledge Halleck was never promoted above the rank of Major General.

 

[Dan Kohli]

The people with Regular army commissions do seem to be promoted to higher commands. But most times the volunteer rank of an individual is quite a bit higher than the regular army commission to be a non factor for choosing who is in command of an army. Although I think it did allow Grant to be promoted to Lt. General, since he was already a major general in the Regular Army.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums.

Are you referring to regular and brevet ranks?

The brevet rank is not what was being asked about. The U.S. Army considered officers of the Regular Army to have seniority over volunteer officers within their rank. Brevet rank adds some other types of fun and confusion.

 

[LtGenHenryWagerHalleck]

My understanding is a regular rank was senior to the same volunteer rank, but this was rarely relevant.

The biggest difference is a regular rank was retained after the war while a volunteer rank expired.

I am curious about the OP username as to my knowledge Halleck was never promoted above the rank of Major General.

Thanks for the info

This is correct he was only ever major general he no doubt would have liked a higher rank and so it is a partial jest.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[rpkennedy]

Regular commissions were the tie-breaker in the case of 2 volunteer officers with the same date of rank. Whoever had the senior Regular rank was senior.

Ryan

 

[GELongstreet]

While Halleck wore a third star for a while he surely would have preferred to get it the other way as well.

If officers of the same Volunteer rank were the senior officers in a unit the one with the earlier date of rank would take command. Prominently countless swaps of brigade and division commanders happened due to that. However a regular officer was always senior to all volunteer officers of the same rank, regardless of dates.

Regular Army generals were a rather rare breed and most regular field officers eventually either served on somewhat distant posts, in regular brigades or with a double commission as a volunteer general.

 

[Stryker65]

However a regular officer was always senior to all volunteer officers of the same rank, regardless of dates.

This brings up a question I myself had; if there was a Regular Army captain or major who also held the rank of brigadier in the volunteer forces (Weed, Ayres, King, etc.), would they rank all volunteer, non-RA, brigadiers? Or would it depend solely on the date of their volunteer brigadiership?

 

[GELongstreet]

The dates of their volunteer rank would still be the factor. The regular rank would only become relevant if they had the same date of rank (as Brigadier of Volunteers). Same date of rank could easily happen since those often were deliberate, frequently backdated and might have been confirmed in the same Congressional sitting. But then of course at most times it would be odd to have several of them concentrated in a single division, depending on commander and situation there might be some shuffling within the corps or army to prevent any possible seniority issues or unwanted successors.

 

[Stryker65]

Forgive me if I posted this in the wrong place I am new here.

I understand that there were two ranking systems one for the volunteer army and one for the regular army. The date of the rank is used if there is a "tie" in rank. But did the regular army rank impact the chain of command during the war at all or did it only matter for after the war or would it be used if two people had the same date and rank would it then decide who is in command?

If we stick to generals, these were the RA generals during the war:
Lt. Gen. (2MAR1864) Ulysses S. Grant
Maj. Gen. (25JUN1841) / Bvt. Lt. Gen. (29MAR1847) Winfield Scott (retired 1NOV1861)
Maj. Gen. (14MAY1861) George B. McClellan (resigned 8NOV1864)
Maj. Gen. (14MAY1861) John C. Frémont (resigned 4JUN1864)
Maj. Gen. (19AUG1861) Henry W. Halleck
Maj. Gen. (16MAY1862) John E. Wool (retired 1AUG1863)
Maj. Gen. (4JUL1863) Ulysses S. Grant
Maj. Gen. (12AUG1864) William T. Sherman
Maj. Gen. (18AUG1864) George G. Meade
Maj. Gen. (15DEC1864) George H. Thomas
Brig. Gen. (25JUN1841) / Bvt. Maj. Gen. (23FEB1847) John E. Wool (promoted)
Brig. Gen. (30JUN1846) / Bvt. Maj. Gen. (23SEP1846) David E. Twiggs (dismissed 1MAR1861)
Brig. Gen. (14JUN1858) William S. Harney (retired 1AUG1863)
Brig. Gen. (16MAR1861) Edwin V. Sumner (died 21MAR1863)
Brig. Gen. (14MAY1861) Joseph K. F. Mansfield (died 18SEP1862)
Brig. Gen. (14MAY1861) Irvin McDowell
Brig. Gen. (14MAY1861) Robert Anderson (retired 27OCT1863)
Brig. Gen. (16MAY1861) William S. Rosecrans
Brig. Gen. (12NOV1861) Philip S. Cooke
Brig. Gen. (14JUL1862) John Pope
Brig. Gen. (20SEP1862) Joseph Hooker
Brig. Gen. (3JUL1863) George G. Meade (promoted)
Brig. Gen. (4JUL1863) William T. Sherman (promoted)
Brig. Gen. (1AUG1863) James B. McPherson
Brig. Gen. (27OCT1863) George H. Thomas (promoted)
Brig. Gen. (12AUG1864) Winfield S. Hancock
Brig. Gen. (30NOV1864) John M. Schofield
Brig. Gen. (21DEC1864) Oliver O. Howard

 

[Stryker65]

Every brigadier-general in the list was a major-general of volunteers. EXCEPT Philip S. Cooke. Cooke was probably the longest-serving RA brigadier, commanding a cavalry division within the AoP and then commanding the District of Baton Rouge in the 19th Corps.

I think the only major command dispute to come out of the Regular Army was when McClellan was given command of the AotP, when John Wool commanded the Dept. of Virginia (within the AotP's jurisdiction). Wool argued (and he was right) that he ranked McClellan according to his brevet rank, and therefore should command the AotP. To remedy the situation, Lincoln replaced Wool with John A. Dix, a non-RA volunteer major-general, and transferred Wool to the independent Department of the East, consisting of NY and NJ.

I imagine that when Henry Halleck got the general-in-chief appointment, it must've been a sore spot for McClellan and Frémont -- both were senior to Halleck.