1861-Dated NCO Sword

[Missouri_8th_Infantry]

I recently purchased this 1861-dated M1840 Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) sword as a presentation companion to my 1861-dated M1861 Springfield rifle. Here is what Thillmann says about these swords in his book "Civil War Army Swords":

Page 202: "The separately dated 1861 and 1862 Collins NCO swords are the rarest of all of the NCO swords contracted for by the Ordnance Department".
Page 203: "A second sword has turned up, and it is unusual in that the Collins NCO sword has the later used address with the arched first line. This arched address was used in the Collins & Co. NCO sword with the separately applied 1862 date, only in this instance it is an 1861 date. As in the previous sword and in the case of the following 1862-dated NCO, it is believed that this is one of the very rare U.S. Government-purchased NCO swords."

Question 1: While I love the patina on the top three-quarters of the blade, the bottom 25% shows some light surface rust and light pitting. Is there any possible way to get rid of the rust without removing the patina? I almost think that the value of the sword may be the same polished and without the rust than the way it is now.
Question 2: Do original scabbards for M1840 NCO swords typically show up for sale without the sword, or am I better off getting a replica?
Question 3: Would an 1861-dated sword have a metal or leather scabbard?

 

[UCVRelics]

Nice piece. All Collins had leather scabbards. The light rust is an EZ fix with a Green Pad rubbed VERY lightly. The reason its just there in lower section is that sword was kept somewhere standing straight up and down and that is where the moister gathered before the leather scabbard rotted away. I believe Emerson & Silver was the only maker with a metal scabbard, if I wrong we will know shortly. @Richard E. Schenk can tell us more.

 

[Missouri_8th_Infantry]

Nice piece. All Collins had leather scabbards. The light rust is an EZ fix with a Green Pad rubbed VERY lightly. The reason its just there in lower section is that sword was kept somewhere standing straight up and down and that is where the moister gathered before the leather scabbard rotted away. I believe Emerson & Silver was the only maker with a metal scabbard, if I wrong we will know shortly. @Richard E. Schenk can tell us more.

Pardon my ignorance... what's a Green Pad?

 

[bayonet]

Yes got me one of them 1861 Collins NCO swords, nice to see it's rare. On your question 2, good luck finding an original scabbard without a sword in it and in any decent condition. Most of the original NCO scabbards I've seen are well worn out. Don't fuss, display it without the scabbard (no need for a replica). I display swords with and without the scabbard. The only swords displayed with the scabbard are the metal scabbard ones. I find leather scabbards a pain in the neck to maintain and most (not all) originals are in rough shape anyway. Of course others will disagree with me

 

[bobinwmass]

I'm one of those who prefer displaying swords with a scabbard, think it makes for a nicer looking display. Having an original scabbard adds significantly to the value of the sword. If you want a scabbard you'll probably have to get a repro, hope it fits properly, and then "distress" it a bit ( scuff up the leather and tone the brass) to match the patina on the sword. Can't recall seeing any complete original leather NCO scabbards for sale lately. Did see a metal Emerson and Silver one in the past couple weeks. As to who else may have made metal NCO scabbards, it is interesting to note that Massachusetts ordered 50 metal replacement NCO scabbards from C. Roby and Company during the Civil War. I don't know if Roby made those themselves or if they would have gotten them from Emerson and Silver who was already making them. On small active rust patches on blades only, I use a non-scratch scrubbing pad and oil and see how that goes first.

 

[bayonet]

I'm one of those who prefer displaying swords with a scabbard, think it makes for a nicer looking display. Having an original scabbard adds significantly to the value of the sword. If you want a scabbard you'll probably have to get a repro, hope it fits properly, and then "distress" it a bit ( scuff up the leather and tone the brass) to match the patina on the sword. Can't recall seeing any complete original leather NCO scabbards for sale lately. Did see a metal Emerson and Silver one in the past couple weeks. As to who else may have made metal NCO scabbards, it is interesting to note that Massachusetts ordered 50 metal replacement NCO scabbards from C. Roby and Company during the Civil War. I don't know if Roby made those themselves or if they would have gotten them from Emerson and Silver who was already making them. On small active rust patches on blades only, I use a non-scratch scrubbing pad and oil and see how that goes first.

My Cavalry Swords and the Artillery Sword I display with scabbards. The M1850 Foot & Officers I display without scabbards so that way you can see the elaborate etching on the blades. All my Rev War swords and displayed with out scabbards because 99% of Rev War swords sell without scabbards. Those rare ones selling with scabbards, the scabbards are a train wreak!

 

[bobinwmass]

My Cavalry Swords and the Artillery Sword I display with scabbards. The M1850 Foot & Officers I display without scabbards so that way you can see the elaborate etching on the blades. All my Rev War swords and displayed with out scabbards because 99% of Rev War swords sell without scabbards. Those rare ones selling with scabbards, the scabbards are a train wreak!

I agree that many officer swords have etching too beautiful to be displayed with the blades hidden in the scabbards. That's why I display all my swords with the blades drawn but next to the scabbard, to show the complete pairing. Leather scabbards on the wall get some extra support. I tend to avoid purchasing swords that do not have a scabbard, unless like in the case of your Rev War swords, they are very rare and not to found otherwise. But that's just what works for me.

 

[UCVRelics]

VERY NICE collection.

 

[Missouri_8th_Infantry]

I saw a couple of suggestions around what to clean the surface rust with... 0000 Super Fine Steel Wool and something called "Green Pad". Does anyone have one preference over the other? I have found plenty of 0000 Super Fine Steel Wool brands online, but not sure if I have the right type of green pad. Will this suffice?... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JGZXFTW/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

 

[UCVRelics]

I saw a couple of suggestions around what to clean the surface rust with... 0000 Super Fine Steel Wool and something called "Green Pad". Does anyone have one preference over the other? I have found plenty of 0000 Super Fine Steel Wool brands online, but not sure if I have the right type of green pad. Will this suffice?... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JGZXFTW/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

Your call but I always use the green pad not near as much as the steel wool.

 

[bayonet]

I agree that many officer swords have etching too beautiful to be displayed with the blades hidden in the scabbards. That's why I display all my swords with the blades drawn but next to the scabbard, to show the complete pairing. Leather scabbards on the wall get some extra support. I tend to avoid purchasing swords that do not have a scabbard, unless like in the case of your Rev War swords, they are very rare and not to found otherwise. But that's just what works for me.

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Lucky you your office looks bigger than mine. Whats on the other walls, Muskets? Don't yeah hate when you run out of wall space.

 

[bobinwmass]

Lucky you your office looks bigger than mine. Whats on the other walls, Muskets? Don't yeah hate when you run out of wall space.

It's actually a large loft that overlooks the livingroom. The other 2 walls have display cabinets that house several uniform jackets, some more swords, drum, etc. Only have 3 muskets, 1 carbine, 1 Spencer Rifle for longarms. Guess swords are my favorite. But you're right, I'm now out of space, just in time for retirement when I won't be able to afford to add much more anyways.

 

[bayonet]

It's actually a large loft that overlooks the livingroom. The other 2 walls have display cabinets that house several uniform jackets, some more swords, drum, etc. Only have 3 muskets, 1 carbine, 1 Spencer Rifle for longarms. Guess swords are my favorite. But you're right, I'm now out of space, just in time for retirement when I won't be able to afford to add much more anyways.

I must say I like the way you displayed them with the scabbards below each sword. I never thought of that, looks great. I like to cross them over each other.

 

[R. Porter]

Wow, what a nice display! I would never be able to sit at that desk and get much done. I'd keep getting up and looking at one or another of the swords, then I might have to swing them around and I'd probably hit something; wouldn't be the first time... For what it's worth, based on the study collection at my disposal, the separate date 1861 swords are the rarest. I think those are the blades that you find on Horstmann NCO swords. Next are the ones with no date; I think they have the arched name style. Next are the ones like yours with 1861 and the arched name, then the 1862 separate date with the arched name. The 1862 integral date ones seem to be the most common.

 

[Cavalier]

And a roll top desk to go with all those beautiful swords! That's living right!

John

 

[bobinwmass]

Wow, what a nice display! I would never be able to sit at that desk and get much done. I'd keep getting up and looking at one or another of the swords, then I might have to swing them around and I'd probably hit something; wouldn't be the first time... For what it's worth, based on the study collection at my disposal, the separate date 1861 swords are the rarest. I think those are the blades that you find on Horstmann NCO swords. Next are the ones with no date; I think they have the arched name style. Next are the ones like yours with 1861 and the arched name, then the 1862 separate date with the arched name. The 1862 integral date ones seem to be the most common.

Haven't done much damage with the swords but admittedly have stabbed several things accidentally when turning around with the bayonet on the Spencer Rifle.

 

[bayonet]

Haven't done much damage with the swords but admittedly have stabbed several things accidentally when turning around with the bayonet on the Spencer Rifle.

As long as you don't shot or stab yourself or someone else your fine. I'm sure we have stories of knuckleheads stabbing or shooting themselves. We had to medivac 1 guy out because he stabbed himself in the stomach, don't ask me how he did it? Another guy was in a hotel playing quick draw in front of the full length mirror and shot himself in the hip. Round exited his rear end. We never let him live that down, plenty of laughs . My young daughters were playing sword fighting and broke a light. When I got home from work they had already wrote apology letters. I couldn't be mad over that!