Would Grant Have Pursued Lee At Gettysburg

[GELongstreet]

I think an important question would also be if Grant would be in the same situation as Meade was - so summoned to command only days ago? Summoned from the west (so no useful experience with the army he´s commanding) or already being here for some time? And the battle and foregoing campaign taking in all relevant details the same historical way, up to and including casualties, all troop positions etc.?

This questions are, in my opinion, at first more important then the assumed character (on which alone I would guess that he would pursue).

 

[OpnCoronet]

In 'What ifs...'(didn't happen in reality) all we have to go on is 'character traits' and historical precedents. On this particular thread, both indicate Grant would have pursued the ANV, with the intent of bringing it to battle, as soon as possible.

 

[GELongstreet]

In 'What ifs...'(didn't happen in reality) all we have to go on is 'character traits' and historical precedents ...

I respectfully disagree. We can limit on character traits alone; but we don´t necessarily need to. The combination of characters in this case, and the respective character traits, could have resulted in a different outcome of the battle - and even if not the details would likely have changed a lot, with which also the eventual situation for a pursuit. As I said, from Grants character alone a pursuit is very likely - but with him in command would the situation for it be the same? I don´t think so.

 

[OpnCoronet]

Whatever the situations, we know from his known character traits and known record of actions and any similarity of situations, if any, that Grant would be alert to force the issue to gain(or regain) the initiative, any time he could, before, during or after Gettysburg.

 

[ole]

Worse than defeat is victory. Grant may have pursued Lee after G'burg with a bit more resolve than did Meade. But.

The victorious army is as discombobulated as the loser. One doesn't pursue until one gets his act together. Grant knew that, and Meade did, as well. Chasing Lee recklessly was not a good idea. Get everyone together; get the lines of communication in order; think first -- act later. Grant was not one to let an advantage slip by, but he was not a fool.

Grant would have done approximately what Meade did: consolidate and organize. There would be nothing gained by a headong pursuit of Lee without support. It might be desired, but it would not have been practicable.

Meanwhile, Meade did some pursuing, primarily with Cavalry. I find it hard to criticize Meade. For sure, Lincoln wanted the AoNV destroyed, but there are some practicalities involved. And it could look like it was possible. But I think Meade played it to the extent possible. No fault; no foul.

 

[dvrmte]

Say Grant finally caught up with Lee as Meade did at Williamsport. I doubt Grant would've called a council of war regarding attacking Lee's fortified position. Only two of Meade's corps commanders were in favor of attacking them. I wonder if Grant would've attacked them? Lee was sure hoping Meade would attack him and when he saw them digging fortifications he said, "This is too long for me," proclaimed Lee. "I cannot wait for that." The army leader concluded, "They have but little courage!"

 

[oldpete63]

Worse than defeat is victory. Grant may have pursued Lee after G'burg with a bit more resolve than did Meade. But.

The victorious army is as discombobulated as the loser. One doesn't pursue until one gets his act together. Grant knew that, and Meade did, as well. Chasing Lee recklessly was not a good idea. Get everyone together; get the lines of communication in order; think first -- act later. Grant was not one to let an advantage slip by, but he was not a fool.

Grant would have done approximately what Meade did: consolidate and organize. There would be nothing gained by a headong pursuit of Lee without support. It might be desired, but it would not have been practicable.

Meanwhile, Meade did some pursuing, primarily with Cavalry. I find it hard to criticize Meade. For sure, Lincoln wanted the AoNV destroyed, but there are some practicalities involved. And it could look like it was possible. But I think Meade played it to the extent possible. No fault; no foul.

Excellent point, Ole - been waiting for that one ! (thread was Devil's Advocate) - Lee's victory on July 1st, was not followed up on that date, as you posted " The victorious army is as discombobulated as the loser.". In my opinion - all the Ewell bashing rests on that one point - it took precious time to get reorganized after hard fighting. And as a disclaimer to my initial posting - never meant it as a slight to Meade. (I should have been more clear in that respect ). Meade is one of my faves - I have everything I can get my hands on concerning him, even down to the transcripts of the hearings he was involved with - the man produced a total victory after so many years of losses. It's one of the few times I take Lincoln to task (but understand his reasoning).

 

[BillO]

I agree completely with oldpete on this one, who was agreeing with ole so yeah. I agree. Meade just doesn't seem to get the love from you Yankees like he should. I love and respect the memory of our dear, departed fellow Virginian R.E.Lee but, on day 2 at Gettysburg Meade outgeneraled Lee hands down. If Meade had only fallen dead at the end of day 2 they would have renamed cities after him.

 

[oldpete63]

I agree completely with oldpete on this one, who was agreeing with ole so yeah. I agree. Meade just doesn't seem to get the love from you Yankees like he should. I love and respect the memory of our dear, departed fellow Virginian R.E.Lee but, on day 2 at Gettysburg Meade outgeneraled Lee hands down. If Meade had only fallen dead at the end of day 2 they would have renamed cities after him.

So True !!!

 

[coltshooter1]

Grant would have began probing on the morning of the second day and attempted an attack that afternoon, preferring to be the agressor. He would have had most of his forces up and would have tried to take the initiative from Lee. He would have found what appeared to be weak points on Lee's position and attacked there. Like he did during the Overland Campaign and in the past against the western CS forces. Lee would have been placed in the position to "counterpunch" and there would have been a totally different face to the battle. I do not believe that there would have been any attempt to attack the center of the Union front on the third day, as Lee would have been forced to shift the troops into defensive positions as he did at Antietam to counter Grants agressiveness.

 

[RobertP]

In 'What ifs...'(didn't happen in reality) all we have to go on is 'character traits' and historical precedents. On this particular thread, both indicate Grant would have pursued the ANV, with the intent of bringing it to battle, as soon as possible.

Historical precedent says that if Grant had pursued Lee it would have been very cautiously if at all He didn't go after Beautegard following Shiloh or Bragg after Chattanooga even after that Confederate disaster. He pursued a beaten and retreating Pemberton from Champion Hill to the fortifications at Vicksburg and then launched an immediate attack on what he thought was a shaken and demoralized foe, which failed. Grant wouldn't have taken Lee and the ANV of '63 so lightly and likely would have been even more cautious than Meade has been criticized as being.

 

[RobertP]

Grant would have began probing on the morning of the second day and attempted an attack that afternoon, preferring to be the agressor. He would have had most of his forces up and would have tried to take the initiative from Lee. He would have found what appeared to be weak points on Lee's position and attacked there. Like he did during the Overland Campaign and in the past against the western CS forces. Lee would have been placed in the position to "counterpunch" and there would have been a totally different face to the battle. I do not believe that there would have been any attempt to attack the center of the Union front on the third day, as Lee would have been forced to shift the troops into defensive positions as he did at Antietam to counter Grants agressiveness.

Grant always had the advantage of numbers and gunboats in the western theater. The ANV and AoP were pretty evenly matched at Gettysburg in men and guns. Lee took a defensive posture at Antietam because his plans had been compromised an he was outnumbered better than 2 to 1. Meade beat Lee at Gettysburg precisely because he was on the defensive against Lee's aggressiveness. I seriously doubt Meade would have bested Lee in a battle of maneuver and Grant would have done no better.

 

[oldpete63]

"Meade beat Lee at Gettysburg precisely because he was on the defensive against Lee's aggressiveness" - Agreed - Meade made the right move - Lee did not.
" I seriously doubt Meade would have bested Lee in a battle of maneuver. ". IMO - jury's out on that one - to a degree. Lee, in probably the most complimentary statement of either army concerning Meade, said (paraphrase) that Meade was a worthy opponent, even before the battle. In the case of being outmaneuvered, it's a maybe ?, as Lee was commanding an army quite awhile, as Meade was commanding an army only for days.. But in fairness to Meade, in his "breaking in period", he didn't do too bad in the positioning of his army, as results proved

 

[1SGDan]

It is entirely possible that Grant would not have ignored the early signs of ANV movement and intercepted them before they reached Gettysburg.

 

[RobertP]

It is entirely possible that Grant would not have ignored the early signs of ANV movement and intercepted them before they reached Gettysburg.

Very possible. IIRC, when Hooker realized Lee was on the move he wanted to force the issue and head for Richmond. Lincoln, always protective of Washington, overruled him and ordered the AoP placed between Lee and the capital city. With Abe being very cautious and anxious about Lee's intentions Grant may have been restrained until the plan and disposition of the ANV became clearer. My opinion is that the two armies would have met in the same vicinity regardless of commanders.

 

[1SGDan]

Grant would have pushed with pursuit with relentless vigor, as was his style, I anticipate that this would have led to a meeting in Maryland.

 

[RobertP]

Grant would have pushed with pursuit with relentless vigor, as was his style, I anticipate that this would have led to a meeting in Maryland.

The only chance the '63 version of the AoP could have beaten the '63 version of the ANV was on the defensive, exactly what Meade accomplished. An aggressive Grant against an equally formidable opponent would have been exposed and taken apart.

 

[1SGDan]

I respectively disagree. The AoP under Grant would be nothing like the AoP under any of the leaders that actually held the position.

 

[RobertP]

I respectively disagree. The AoP under Grant would be nothing like the AoP under any of the leaders that actually held the position.

We don't know that. Grant was constantly under estimating the morale of Confederate armies. After easy victories at Fts. Donelson and Henry he believed the A.S. Johnston's army was ready to crumble, which goes a long way to explaining his unpreparedness at Shiloh. He did the same after his victory at Champion Hill, the only significant resistance on his campaign to Vicksburg. He again thought the Rebs were played out and ordered the disastrous May 19 assault to finish them off. After the Wilderness stalemate he was beaten to the crossroads at Spottsylvania but again felt that the Confederates were ready to give up and we know how that turned out. I guess he finally learned the lesson at Cold Harbor.

Remember that in all these cases he was facing an inferior army. It wouldn't have been the same against the ANV in 1863, but Grant would have carried the same attitude with him. He would have tried to press the issue against Lee, wanting to prove he was the better, and would have been beaten. There would be no gunboats in Maryland and Pennsylvania to bail him out.

 

[1SGDan]

I don't think Grant was trying to prove he was better than anyone. He displayed a keen tactical sense regardless of the quality of adversary. Remeber that Lee's army was stretched out for 40 miles. It would have been a race to consolidate, with the inside track and the common sense to take advantage of it Grant may have gained the upper hand.