Would Grant Have Pursued Lee At Gettysburg

oldpete63

Sergeant Major
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Not a fan of What If's - but they are fun & interesting - and in regards to Gettysburg, the usual what if Jackson was there - so, on that note - take the same set of actual circumstances as occured during the Gettysburg Campaign as a whole - right up until the conclusion of the PPT Assault (Pickett's Charge). Grant is the Commander of the AOP - would the ANV escaped over the Potomac, or would Lee have suffered more of a defeat than actually transpired? (and I do like Meade, and feel he did a great job - but he's not a Grant).
 
I think unquestionably yes, given Grant's movements at the same time period at Port Gibson/Jackson/Champion Hill/Big Black River/Vicksburg. I'm not even sure he would have even allowed Lee off the field; the AOP had at least a couple of corps that hadn't been heavily engaged, I believe.

ETA: "Yes" as in Lee would have suffered more of a defeat. I don't know if the advantage was sufficient to bag the entire ANV-- it still had plenty of fight left in it, even after Day 3-- but it would have taken a few more knocks.
 
Reconsidering a little... I think I need to add the caveat of Grant with a supportive command staff. I think at least some of Grant's issues in the Overland Campaign were the result of poor interface with the "Eastern" command structure. A set of obstinate subordinates would have seriously hampered any sort of pursuit. (And I'm wondering what Grant would have done with Sickles.)
 
I concur that Grant would have pressed Lee much more aggressively than Meade did after Gettysburg. Like Mark F. Jenkins, I don't know if the AotP would have completely defeated the AoNV but I believe Lee would have crossed the Potomac back into Virginia with many less men and less materiel.
 
Reconsidering a little... I think I need to add the caveat of Grant with a supportive command staff. I think at least some of Grant's issues in the Overland Campaign were the result of poor interface with the "Eastern" command structure. A set of obstinate subordinates would have seriously hampered any sort of pursuit. (And I'm wondering what Grant would have done with Sickles.)
I think Sickles would have considered himself lucky just losing a leg - Grant would've taken off his head :wink:
 
Great question Pete, and yes, I believe Grant would have pursued the ANV soon after the PPT charge, if not immediately with a counterattack then much sooner than Meade did. I think Grant's strategy during the Overland Campaign where he stayed on Lee's heels all the way to Petersburg, and from his past performances as commander in other previous battles give a good indication that Grant was not likely to allow Lee to get away at Gettysburg without some sort of major effort executed in a timely fashion to stop him.

Lee
 
I think Sickles would have considered himself lucky just losing a leg - Grant would've taken off his head :wink:

(As a side note, not meaning to thread-jack: last August, the Central Ohio Civil War Roundtable heard James Hessler on Sickles at Gettysburg-- was a very entertaining talk! And if Grant's handling of McClernand is any indicator, Sickles would have been in deep trouble...)
 
Great question Pete, and yes, I believe Grant would have pursued the ANV soon after the PPT charge, if not immediately with a counterattack then much sooner than Meade did. I think Grant's strategy during the Overland Campaign where he stayed on Lee's heels all the way to Petersburg, and from his past performances as commander in other previous battles give a good indication that Grant was not likely to allow Lee to get away at Gettysburg without some sort of major effort executed in a timely fashion to stop him.

Lee

For sure - like they said - (paraphrase) - he looked like a bulldog, that was going to ram his head into a stone wall - the epitome of relentless.
 
I'm thinking General Grant but I keep hearing George C. Scott's voice in the intro to the movie Patton: "Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that "we are holding our position." We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose and we're going to kick him in the donkey. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we're going to go through him like **** through a goose!"
 
First, I assume you mean that Grant was commander of the AoP, not general in Chief.

I think Grant would have ordered an assault on July 4th when movement towards the north was observed. The outcome of the assault would have determined it he would pursue whatever was left of the ANV.
 
I'm thinking General Grant but I keep hearing George C. Scott's voice in the intro to the movie Patton: "Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that "we are holding our position." We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose and we're going to kick him in the donkey. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we're going to go through him like **** through a goose!"
I know if when I had been in the service - and told I had to see "The Old Man", and it was Grant (or Hancock for that matter) - OldPete's feet would have been doing the dash :wink:
 
First, I assume you mean that Grant was commander of the AoP, not general in Chief.

I think Grant would have ordered an assault on July 4th when movement towards the north was observed. The outcome of the assault would have determined it he would pursue whatever was left of the ANV.
Right, Pat - as Commander of the AOP.
 
I guess most here would agree that Grant wouldn't have been content to let Lee slip away, as McClellan was in Maryland. But even Meade exercised a fairly agressive pursuit once he realized that the ANV was heading south.

So the first question is, if Grant had been in charge on July 4th, would he have counter-attacked, and if so, how and where? It's quite possible that the positions of the army were such that no offensive action was likely to yield a positive outcome. The flanks had been re-enforced from actions the first two days, and in the center there was simply too much open ground for the infantry to charge - in either direction - without suffering too many losses from cannon fire directly ahead and from fire on either of the flanks.

So what happens if, after Pickett's charge fails, Grant makes a counter-charge, but it takes too long to organize it (a half-hour or better)? Would he be stopped by re-supplied Confederate guns and a re-organized Confederate line on the ridge adjacent to Seminary Hill? If so, what would be the result? I'm guessing that ultimately the result would be the same - the Confederate forces would have to retire, they couldn't stay consolidated in one place for very long due to supply and forage problems. But the additional Union losses would have made it seem much more of a "draw" in public opinion, rather than a defeat for the Confederacy.

And if Grant decides not to counter-attack across much the same ground, but to attack once the ANV begins a withdrawal, how is that much different from what Meade did historically? Would not the results be the same? What further or additional steps could Grant have taken at that point to overtake and stop the Confederate army's retreat into the safety of Virginia?
 
When the movement inward of Longstreet's Corps was observed on July 4th, several commanders urged an assault. Meade waited for the situation to clarify and the window of opportunity closed. I think the assault would be against the ANV right flank
 
I know if when I had been in the service - and told I had to see "The Old Man", and it was Grant (or Hancock for that matter) - OldPete's feet would have been doing the dash :wink:

Still smarting from those meetings with Washington huh?

:D
 
With out a doubt Grant would have persued, even when Grant suffered a loss, as in Cold Harbor, He was right back on Bobby Lee's heels again....

No doubt in my mind.

Getting back to the movie "Patton" reference. There was also a line in the movie about not paying for the same territory twice. Sounds like Grant's philosophy in a nutshell
 

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