Proposed Invasion of Charleston harbor by the North

Savez said:
They knew without a doubt that authorities in Charleston would not let the fort be supplied. Lincoln knew it. Everyone knew it. This is just window dressing to save face.
Click to expand...

So Savez then why didnt the Confederates allow food into the fort, that would have taken away any reason for the fleet to be sent... They didn't, because they wanted a confrontation to lead to a war, to suck the border states in on their side.
 
George Purvis said:
What did Anderson say about his orders?

What did the POTUS say?

Now what is your argument???

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
Click to expand...

Bucannon didn't even know that his Sec was sending muntions down South and had no idea what was going on...Anderson following his authorization moved his force to Sumter, kind of funny if he disobeyed orders why wasn't he charged? Answer that one.. Floyd wanted him court martialed but backed down when saw the orders that he signed off on, and yes these are the written copy of the verbal orders that Buell gave him....
 
wilber6150 said:
Bucannon didn't even know that his Sec was sending muntions down South and had no idea what was going on...Anderson following his authorization moved his force to Sumter, kind of funny if he disobeyed orders why wasn't he charged? Answer that one.. Floyd wanted him court martialed but backed down when saw the orders that he signed off on, and yes these are the written copy of the verbal orders that Buell gve him....
Click to expand...


I think Buchannon knew more the situation than is generally accepted. What did take him by surprise is the truce between Anderson and SC.

"if he disobeyed orders why wasn't he charged?"
Why would he be?? he was on e the winningside. Whay was Grant, Lincoln,Sherman, Butler Turchin etc etc etc. charged for their war crimes??? Disobeying orders sorta dims when you start talking about the things these fellows did.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
 
wilber6150 said:
I saw his letter posted and he is saying what I have said multiple times that noone ordered him to Sumter..So what, he had the authorization....
Click to expand...


Oh good Lord talk about nitpicking. Believe what you want the rest of us know the facts.

Think I am gonna go play hearts (yes I am smart enough to know how) for a while so that you can get your nitpicking together. BTW do you have a reference as to who fired the first shot?


GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
 
Wow, ok gentlemen, time for a time-out here, the thread will be back out in 24 hours.

Posted as moderator
 
Another letter from Anderson...

FORT SUMTER, South Carolina, December 29, 1860.
"My dear Sir: No one will regret more deeply than I shall, should it prove true that the movement I have made has complicated rather than disembarrassed affairs. There is an unaccountable mystery in reference to this affair. I was asked by a gentleman within a day or two, if I had been notified by your Government that I would not be molested at Fort Moultrie, and when I replied that I had not been so notified, he remarked that he was glad to hear it, as it convinced him that I had acted in good faith, having just told him that I had not received such an intimation from my own Government. Now if there was such an understanding, I certainly ought to have been informed of it .
But why, if your Government thought that I knew of this agreement, was everything done which indicated an intention to attack? Why were armed steamers kept constantly on the watch for my movements? The papers say that I was under a panic. That is a mistake ; the moment I inspected my position I saw that the work was not defensible with my small command, and recommended, weeks ago, that we ought to be withdrawn. I remained, then, as long as I could under the fearful responsibility I felt for the safety of my command, and finally decided on Christmas morning that I would remove the command that day; and it would have been attempted that day if the weather had not proved inauspicious. Not a person of my command knew of my determination until that morning, and only on that day. The captains of the lighters are, I am sorry to see, threatened by the Charlestonians for what they did. I do hope that they will not disgrace themselves by wreaking their wrath upon these men. They were employed to take the women and children, and food for them, to Fort Johnson, and were as innocent in the matter as any one. Another lighter was filled with commissary stores for the workingmen here, and her captain certainly is not blamable for bringing them. Not a soldier came in either of these vessels except the married men with their wives for Fort Johnson, and there was not an arm of any kind permitted to be taken on board those boats. Only one person on board those boats knew that Fort Johnson was not their final destination, until the signal was given that the command was in Fort Sumter. My men were transferred in our own boats, and were all, with the exception of those attached to the hospital, in the fort before 8 o'clock. So much in exoneration of the captains.
I regret that the Governor has deemed proper to treat us as enemies, by cutting off our communication with the city, permitting me only to send for the mails. Now this is annoying, and I regret it. We can do without going to the city, as I have supplies of provisions, of all kinds, to last my command about five months, but it would add to our comfort to be enabled to make purchases of fresh meats and so on, and to shop in the city. The Governor does not know how entirely the commerce and intercourse of Charleston by sea are in my power. I could, if so disposed, annoy and embarrass the Charlestonians much more than they can me. With my guns I can close the harbor completely to the access of all large vessels, and I might even cut off the lights, so as to seal the approach entirely by night. I do hope that nothing will occur to add to the excitement and bad feeling which exists in the city. No one has a right to be angry with me for my action. No one can tell what they would have done unless they were placed in the same tight place. . . . I write this note hurriedly, as I wish to acknowledge the receipt of your kind note, and to assure you that I am firmly convinced that, had you been in my place, and known no more of the political bearing of things than I did, you would have acted as I did.
I know that if my action was properly explained to the people of Charleston, they would not feel any excitement against me or my command.
Praying that the time may soon come, etc.,
ROBERT ANDERSON.

From this letter Anderson is stating that he knew nothing about an agreement to stay in Sumter, and thought S. Carolina was preparing to attack...Which would according to his orders would allow him to move to any fort he thought best for defense..
 
And what did Washington think about him moving...

WAR DEPARTMENT, January 10, 1861
Major ROBERT ANDERSON,
First Artillery, Commanding at Fort Sumter, S. C.:
SIR: Your dispatches to Numbers 16, inclusive have been received. Before the receipt of that of 31st December,* announcing that the Government
might re-enforce you at its leisure, and that you regarded yourself safe in your present position, some two hundred and fifty instructed recruits had been ordered to proceed from Governor's Island to Fort Sumter on the Star of the West, for the purpose of strengthening the force under your command. The probability is, from the current rumors of to-day, that this vessel has been fired into by the South Carolinians, and has not been able to reach you. To meet all contingencies, the Brooklyn has been dispatched, with instructions not to cross the bar at the harbor of Charleston, but to afford to the Star of the West and those on board all the assistance they may need, and in the event the recruits have not effected a landing at Fort Sumter they will return to Fort Monroe.
I avail myself of the occasion to express the great satisfaction of the Government at the forbearance, discretion and firmness with which you have acted, amid the perplexing and difficult circumstances in which you have been placed. You will continue, as heretofore, to act strictly on the defensive; to avoid, by all means compatible with the safety of your command, a collision with the hostile forces by which you are surrounded. But for the movement so promptly and brilliantly executed, by which you transferred your forces to Fort Sumter, the probability is that ere this the defenselessness of your position would have invited an attack, which, there is reason to believe, was contemplated, if not in active preparation, which must have led to the effusion of blood, that has been thus so happily prevented. The movement, therefore, was in every way admirable, alike for its humanity [and] patriotism, as for its soldiership.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. HOLT.
Secretary of War ad interim.


Certainly doesn't sound like they thought he did anything wrong or contrary to orders...
 
wilber6150 said:
I'll believe what the OR's and diaries tell me, and let that facts fall where they may...
Click to expand...


A truer statement would be I'll believe what the OR's and diaries tell me, and let that facts fall where they may as long as they fit my agenda.

Anyone who has searched the ORs know they are incomplete the same as the CWS&S. To rely soley on the ORs is to ignore other sources of information. The information I have posted comes from reliable sources that yiou continue to dismiss. To pick and choose the sources you choose to believe is nothing more than williful ignorance.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
 
wilber6150 said:
Another letter from Anderson...

FORT SUMTER, South Carolina, December 29, 1860.
"My dear Sir: No one will regret more deeply than I shall, should it prove true that the movement I have made has complicated rather than disembarrassed affairs. There is an unaccountable mystery in reference to this affair. I was asked by a gentleman within a day or two, if I had been notified by your Government that I would not be molested at Fort Moultrie, and when I replied that I had not been so notified, he remarked that he was glad to hear it, as it convinced him that I had acted in good faith, having just told him that I had not received such an intimation from my own Government. Now if there was such an understanding, I certainly ought to have been informed of it .
But why, if your Government thought that I knew of this agreement, was everything done which indicated an intention to attack? Why were armed steamers kept constantly on the watch for my movements? The papers say that I was under a panic. That is a mistake ; the moment I inspected my position I saw that the work was not defensible with my small command, and recommended, weeks ago, that we ought to be withdrawn. I remained, then, as long as I could under the fearful responsibility I felt for the safety of my command, and finally decided on Christmas morning that I would remove the command that day; and it would have been attempted that day if the weather had not proved inauspicious. Not a person of my command knew of my determination until that morning, and only on that day. The captains of the lighters are, I am sorry to see, threatened by the Charlestonians for what they did. I do hope that they will not disgrace themselves by wreaking their wrath upon these men. They were employed to take the women and children, and food for them, to Fort Johnson, and were as innocent in the matter as any one. Another lighter was filled with commissary stores for the workingmen here, and her captain certainly is not blamable for bringing them. Not a soldier came in either of these vessels except the married men with their wives for Fort Johnson, and there was not an arm of any kind permitted to be taken on board those boats. Only one person on board those boats knew that Fort Johnson was not their final destination, until the signal was given that the command was in Fort Sumter. My men were transferred in our own boats, and were all, with the exception of those attached to the hospital, in the fort before 8 o'clock. So much in exoneration of the captains.
I regret that the Governor has deemed proper to treat us as enemies, by cutting off our communication with the city, permitting me only to send for the mails. Now this is annoying, and I regret it. We can do without going to the city, as I have supplies of provisions, of all kinds, to last my command about five months, but it would add to our comfort to be enabled to make purchases of fresh meats and so on, and to shop in the city. The Governor does not know how entirely the commerce and intercourse of Charleston by sea are in my power. I could, if so disposed, annoy and embarrass the Charlestonians much more than they can me. With my guns I can close the harbor completely to the access of all large vessels, and I might even cut off the lights, so as to seal the approach entirely by night. I do hope that nothing will occur to add to the excitement and bad feeling which exists in the city. No one has a right to be angry with me for my action. No one can tell what they would have done unless they were placed in the same tight place. . . . I write this note hurriedly, as I wish to acknowledge the receipt of your kind note, and to assure you that I am firmly convinced that, had you been in my place, and known no more of the political bearing of things than I did, you would have acted as I did.
I know that if my action was properly explained to the people of Charleston, they would not feel any excitement against me or my command.
Praying that the time may soon come, etc.,
ROBERT ANDERSON.

From this letter Anderson is stating that he knew nothing about an agreement to stay in Sumter, and thought S. Carolina was preparing to attack...Which would according to his orders would allow him to move to any fort he thought best for defense..
Click to expand...


"not been notified" Not true.

Mr. Buchanan's Administration on the Eve of the Rebellion. Contributors: James Buchanan - author. Pages 166-167


The President (Buchanan) having observed that Major Buell, in reducing to writing at Fort Moultrie the instructions he had verbally received, required Major Anderson, in case of attack, to defend himself to the last extremity, immediately caused the Secretary of War to modify this instruction. This extreme was not required by any principle of military honor or by any rule of war. It was sufficient for him to defend himself until no reasonable hope should remain of saving the fort (Moultrie). The instructions were accordingly so modified, with the approbation of General Scott.

The President having determined not to disturb the status quo at Charleston, as long as our troops should continue to be hospitably treated by the inhabitants, and remain in unmolested possession of the forts, was gratified to learn, a short time thereafter, that South Carolina was equally intent on preserving the peace. On the 8th December, 1860, four of the Representatives in Congress from that State sought an interview, and held a conversation with him concerning the best means of avoiding a hostile collision between the parties. In order to guard against any misapprehension on either side, he suggested that they had best reduce their verbal communication to writing, and bring it to him in that form. Accordingly, on the 10th December, they delivered to him a note, dated on the previous day, and signed by five members, in which they say: "In compliance with our statement to you yesterday, we now express to you our strong convictions that neither the constituted authorities, nor any body of the people of the State of South Carolina, will either attack or molest the United States forts in the harbor of Charleston, previously to the action of the Convention; and we hope and believe not until an offer has been made, through an accredited representative, to negotiate for an amicable arrangement of all matters between the State and the Federal Government, provided that no reënforcements be sent into these forts, and their relative military status shall remain as at present."


Now there you have it in a nutshell. Anderson was not "authorized" to move, he had been informed there was no hostile intent, no reenforcements allowed.

Now you have it coupled with Andersons own words
FORT SUMTER, Charleston, S. C, December 27, 1860.

My dear Sir: I have only time to say that the movement of my command to this place was made on my own responsibility and not in obedience to orders from Washington.

His responsibility --- no authorization in his own words

George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4
 
wilber6150 said:
And what did Washington think about him moving...

WAR DEPARTMENT, January 10, 1861
Major ROBERT ANDERSON,
First Artillery, Commanding at Fort Sumter, S. C.:
SIR: Your dispatches to Numbers 16, inclusive have been received. Before the receipt of that of 31st December,* announcing that the Government
might re-enforce you at its leisure, and that you regarded yourself safe in your present position, some two hundred and fifty instructed recruits had been ordered to proceed from Governor's Island to Fort Sumter on the Star of the West, for the purpose of strengthening the force under your command. The probability is, from the current rumors of to-day, that this vessel has been fired into by the South Carolinians, and has not been able to reach you. To meet all contingencies, the Brooklyn has been dispatched, with instructions not to cross the bar at the harbor of Charleston, but to afford to the Star of the West and those on board all the assistance they may need, and in the event the recruits have not effected a landing at Fort Sumter they will return to Fort Monroe.
I avail myself of the occasion to express the great satisfaction of the Government at the forbearance, discretion and firmness with which you have acted, amid the perplexing and difficult circumstances in which you have been placed. You will continue, as heretofore, to act strictly on the defensive; to avoid, by all means compatible with the safety of your command, a collision with the hostile forces by which you are surrounded. But for the movement so promptly and brilliantly executed, by which you transferred your forces to Fort Sumter, the probability is that ere this the defenselessness of your position would have invited an attack, which, there is reason to believe, was contemplated, if not in active preparation, which must have led to the effusion of blood, that has been thus so happily prevented. The movement, therefore, was in every way admirable, alike for its humanity [and] patriotism, as for its soldiership.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. HOLT.
Secretary of War ad interim.


Certainly doesn't sound like they thought he did anything wrong or contrary to orders...
Click to expand...


Well golly gee I would give him props too since there was nothing much else left to do. We can make the same comparison to a present day "incident" happening in Washington today. As you can see here Buchanan thanks to Anderson, was caught berween a rock and a hard place, nowhere to run nowhere to hide.

Mr. Buchanan's Administration on the Eve of the Rebellion. Contributors: James Buchanan Pages 194-195

Between the two events it was physically impossible to prepare and send a second expedition, and this could not be done afterwards until the truce should expire, without a violation of public faith. It did not last, as the General asserts, "to the end of the administration," but expired by its own. limitation on the 5th February, the day when Secretary Holt finally and peremptorily announced to the South Carolina commissioner that the President would not under any circumstances
surrender Fort Sumter. It is possible that, under the laws of war, the President might have annulled this truce after due notice to Governor Pickens. This, however, would have cast a
serious reflection on Major Anderson for having concluded it, who, beyond question, had acted from the purest and most patriotic motives.
 
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