Proposed Invasion of Charleston harbor by the North

[wilber6150]

Yeah Im sure....The reasons that Anderson have given to leave are on several of these threads, try the search function or start researching the old threads...Thats what they are there for...

 

[Tin cup]

"hey man good to hear from you. How you doing???"

Hey, one knee replacement latter and I can still whip all hell! (well, it sounds good, anyway)
Still busy makin coil-tubing units, working myself to death and gritchin all the way to the Bank about it!

Kevin Dally

 

[wilber6150]

Now you are starting to get the picture-- The US governemnt had a habit of going back on their word. Lincoln also tried the same trick. Are you surprised it didn't work??

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

Hmmm at the same time the Confederacy was in the habit of holding Union troops in a helpless position while building up their military strength.

 

[seboyle]

Really -- illegal??? And it says that where????

Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right – a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is the right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any such portion may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with or near about them, who may oppose this movement. Such minority was precisely the case of the Tories of our own Revolution. It is a quality of revolutions not to go by old lines or old laws; but to break up both and make new ones." – Abraham Lincoln

Now we know the South didn't have the power, but their cause certainly was no more illegal than the cause of 1776[/quote]

Illegal or otherwise there is a world of difference between the two claims.

In 1776 it was "no taxation without representation" or in other words the people wanted to be governed with their consent. (Note that this only means having a say in choosing that government through elections. It most certainly does not mean that every tax would be agreed upon by every person).

In 1860 it was "we don't like the... [fill in the blank with the policy of one's choice e.g. tariff] chosen fairly and democratically with our consent."

Two completely different claims, one strong, the other weak.

 

[wilber6150]

Well that could be said for any president. I don't really need to compare anything, I have in his own words he moved without orders. You are grasping at smoke, ignoring the facts and trying to play word games to try justify what was doen to the South. Sorry I don't play that game.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

Lets see you have used legislation that has nothing to do with Sumter to prove a point, have stated that Anderson had no authority to move to Sumter, in which I have shown you otherwise..Now you are playing word games, as I have said that he wasn't under orders to move to Sumter but had the authrization to occupy any of the three forts when he felt the need..Anderson would not state that he was ordered into Sumter, as he wasn't... You are looking for things that aren't there .
You also initially said that Bucannon supported S. Carolinas position on Sumter by allowing a truce then suddenly switched your position when reminded that he ordered the Star of the West operation.
You describe a few ships and men as a invasion fleet while ignoring the thousands of men that were beseiging Sumter..
I have shown you a letter from Anderson describing why he went to Sumter using almost the exact language that was in his orders, yet you deny that...So I suppose that it was some coincendence that the language he used was identical to what was put down in paper in Washington and signed off by Floyd...The very man who wanted charges pressed against Anderson but backed off when shown the signed written version of the verbal orders that Anderson was given..You are now even denying that Anderson felt threatened at Moultrie, yet know all about the crisis... So I guess the man that did everything he could not to start a war, just decided to move to Sumter for no reason at all?
There is a difference between doing something under orders as opposed to doing it under authorization..Just because a action was taken without orders does not mean it was taken without authorization. Anderson can truthfully say that he made the move to Sumter with out being ordered to, but thats different from saying that he wasn't authorized to.. The verbal orders he was under left the decesion to decide which fort of the three to move into up to him...

 

[wilber6150]

But some of the same issues in 1860 are with us today. Isn't that relevent?

GP

No keep modern topics out of these debates, if you want to discuss modern politics there are threads in the campfire forum for that..
Posted as Mod

 

[wilber6150]

Now you are starting to get the picture-- The US governemnt had a habit of going back on their word. Lincoln also tried the same trick. Are you surprised it didn't work??

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

Some trick Lincoln told the Confederates the fleet was coming...

 

[wilber6150]

No you are just wrong there. These were the last written orders Anderson received. Nothing is said about moving


Sure I am familar with the events in Charleston, isn't it true I am discussing them with you?

No you are wronf about the orders, these are the last written orders Anderson received.

Try as yiou may you just cannot change history to fit you needs.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

Have you actually read the orders that you posted? Heres a part of it...

You are to exercise a sound military discretion on this subject. It is neither expected nor desired that you should expose your own life or that of your men in a hopeless conflict in defense of these forts. If they are invested or attacked by a force so superior that resistance would, in your judgment, be a useless waste of life, it will be your duty to yield to necessity, and make the best terms in your power. This will be the conduct of an honorable, brave, and humane officer, and you will be fully justified in such action. These orders are strictly confidential, and not to be communicated even to the officers under your command, without close necessity

The line "You are to exercise a sound military discretion on this subject" gives Anderson leeway to act as he sees fit, and how about the last line.."not to be communicated even to the officers under your command without close necessity" Wondering why Anderson didn't tell his officers until the last minute...Theres a good reason right there...So where in this order you posted states that he must stay in Moultrie and can't move his troops? Study the history on why this second order was sent out by Bucannon...

 

[unionblue]

Who owned Ft. Sumter question has been plowed so many times we're starting to show bedrock.

The fort was clearly federal property and it was resolved long before April, 1861.

Anderson had permission to move his forces and he had that permission in writing and they were signed off by Secretary of War Floyd.

Nitpicking don't make it untrue.

Unionblue

 

[KeyserSoze]

There were no orders Buchannon says so Anderson says so. What you have posted is nothing more than vague general orders.

I posted that info. You are simply covering the same ground we have already been over.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

First you say there were no orders. Then you admit there were general orders provided by Major Buell that allowed Anderson to act as he saw fit to ensure the safety of his command.

 

[George Purvis]

Not disputable? A few vessels with a couple hundred recruits is a invasion fleet? Counting every sailor on every ship even the civilians as part of this invasion force..Care to make a guess on how many Confederate men and artillery and ships were around Sumter by April 12-13th? And while your at it, how many men did they have facing Ft. Pickens...So what exactly were these peace loving Confederates doing while they held the Union to their truce?
Lincoln told the Confederates, Sumter was to be re-supplied peacefully with food only, but would use force if hostilites commenced.. So who really wanted a war?
As to the truce for Ft. Pickens, Bragg had already considered that truce to be over in March, even though he hadn't told the Union commander that, who happened to be stopping Union troops from landing at the fort in compliance with the truce.

I posted the entire fleet. Didn't you read it???? It doesn't matter how many Confederate men were around Sumter. Lincoln's plan was to force his way in and re-enforce Sumter. The Confederates knew it and the plan failed.

We also know Lincoln lied so what else is knew. A few pages back you and your buds were laughing talking about howLincoln outsmarted the Confederates by getting them to fire firts, he didn't outsmart anyone, they knew what was coming.

You are going in circles again

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The following list embraces the names, with armaments and troops, of Lincoln's supply fleet dispatched from New York and Washington to Charleston harbor, for the relief of Fort Sumter:-

Vessels of War
Steam sloop-of-war Pawnee, Captain S. C. Rowan, 10 guns and 200 men. The Pawnee sailed from Washington, with sealed orders, on the morning of Saturday, April 6.
Steam sloop-of-war Powhatan, Captain E. D. Porter, 11 guns and 275 men. The Powhatan sailed from the Brookyln Navy Yard on Saturday afternoon April 6.
Revenue cutter Harriet Lane, Captain J. Faunce, 5 guns and 96 men. On Saturday, April 6, the Harriet Lane exchanged her revenue flag for the United States navy flag, denoting her transfer to the Government naval service, and sailed suddenly on last Monday morning, with sealed orders.

The Steam Transports
Atlantic, 358 troops, composed of Companies A and M of the Second artillery, Companies C and H of the Second infantry, and Company A of sappers and miners from West Point. The Atlantic sailed from the steam at 5 o'clock on Sunday morning last, April 7.
Baltic, 160 troops, composed of Companies C and D, recruits, from Governor's and Bedloe's islands. The Baltic sailed from Quarantine at 7o'clock on Tuesday morning last, April 9.
Illinois, 300 troops, composed of Companies B, E, F, G and H, and a detachment from Company D, all recruits from Governor's and Bedloe's Islands, together with two companies of the Second infantry, from Fort Hamilton. The Illinois sailed from Quarantine on Tuesday morning at 6 o'clock.

The Steamtugs
Two steamtugs, with a Government official on each, bearing sealed dispatches, were also sent. The Yankee left New York on Monday evening, 8th, and the Uncle Ben on Tuesday night.

The Launches
Nearly thirty of these boats-whose services are most useful in effecting a landing of troops over shoal water, and for attacking a discharging battery when covered with sand and gunny bags- have been taken out by the Powhatan and by the steam transports Atlantic, Baltic and Illinois.

Recapitulation
Vessels Guns Men
Sloop-of-war Pawnee 10 200
Sloop-of-war Powhatan 11 275
Cutter Harriet Lane 5 96
Steam Transport Atlantic 353
Steam Transport Baltic 160
Steam Transport Illinois 300
Steamtug Yankee Ordinary Crew
Steamtug Uncle Ben Ordinary Crew
Total number of vessels 8
Total number of guns (for marine service) 26
Total number of men and troops 1,380

It is understood that several transports are soon to be chartered, and dispatched to Charleston with troops and supplies.
________________________
Those ships that were assigned specifically to Charleston.
The ships assigned were the steam sloop-of-war USS Pawnee, steam sloop-of-war USS Powhatan, transporting motorized launches and about 300 sailors (secretly removed from the Charleston fleet to join in the forced reenforcement of Fort Pickens, Pensacola, Fla.), armed screw steamer USS Pochaontas, Revenue Cutter USS Harriet Lane, steamer Baltic transporting about 200 troops, composed of companies C and D of the 2nd U.S. Artillery, and three hired tug boats. The rest of the ships listed in the New York paper went to Pensacola.

 

[George Purvis]

"hey man good to hear from you. How you doing???"

Hey, one knee replacement latter and I can still whip all hell! (well, it sounds good, anyway)
Still busy makin coil-tubing units, working myself to death and gritchin all the way to the Bank about it!

Kevin Dally

Well I have a hip and a knee and never felt better!!!! LOL LOL LOL Yeah right?????

Man I am glad I am out of the business hated welding those babies together but as you say it paid the bills.

GP

 

[George Purvis]

Hmmm at the same time the Confederacy was in the habit of holding Union troops in a helpless position while building up their military strength.

So???? There was nothing in the truce that said the Confederates could not build up their defenses. Also as a new country what do you expect them to do with a hostile neighbor?? See that was the purpose of the truce to prevent bloodshed while negotiations were going on. Anderson violated this truce-- that is a fact of history and no amount of two stepping by you will change that facts.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

 

[George Purvis]

No there is no difference between the claims. It is only you do not know, but that is another thread another time.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

 

[unionblue]

They were not a new country, they were a portion of an already established country in rebellion.

The fact is the CSA was never recognized as a country, nation, empire, etc., by any nation worthy of the name.

Anderson violated no truce while commander of US troops and US facilities in Charleston. What he is guilty of is trying to protect his men and prevent a war, something South Carolina and the new Confederate government would not let him do. This is the facts of history and no amount of wistful thinking will change those facts.

Crisis at Fort Sumter.

http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/

Ownership of Fort Sumter.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/sumterownership.htm

Ditch the partisan website and try for an objective reading of actual historical facts.

Until that time,
Unionblue

 

[wilber6150]

I posted the entire fleet. Didn't you read it???? It doesn't matter how many Confederate men were around Sumter. Lincoln's plan was to force his way in and re-enforce Sumter. The Confederates knew it and the plan failed.

We also know Lincoln lied so what else is knew. A few pages back you and your buds were laughing talking about howLincoln outsmarted the Confederates by getting them to fire firts, he didn't outsmart anyone, they knew what was coming.

You are going in circles again

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The following list embraces the names, with armaments and troops, of Lincoln's supply fleet dispatched from New York and Washington to Charleston harbor, for the relief of Fort Sumter:-

Vessels of War
Steam sloop-of-war Pawnee, Captain S. C. Rowan, 10 guns and 200 men. The Pawnee sailed from Washington, with sealed orders, on the morning of Saturday, April 6.
Steam sloop-of-war Powhatan, Captain E. D. Porter, 11 guns and 275 men. The Powhatan sailed from the Brookyln Navy Yard on Saturday afternoon April 6.
Revenue cutter Harriet Lane, Captain J. Faunce, 5 guns and 96 men. On Saturday, April 6, the Harriet Lane exchanged her revenue flag for the United States navy flag, denoting her transfer to the Government naval service, and sailed suddenly on last Monday morning, with sealed orders.

The Steam Transports
Atlantic, 358 troops, composed of Companies A and M of the Second artillery, Companies C and H of the Second infantry, and Company A of sappers and miners from West Point. The Atlantic sailed from the steam at 5 o'clock on Sunday morning last, April 7.
Baltic, 160 troops, composed of Companies C and D, recruits, from Governor's and Bedloe's islands. The Baltic sailed from Quarantine at 7o'clock on Tuesday morning last, April 9.
Illinois, 300 troops, composed of Companies B, E, F, G and H, and a detachment from Company D, all recruits from Governor's and Bedloe's Islands, together with two companies of the Second infantry, from Fort Hamilton. The Illinois sailed from Quarantine on Tuesday morning at 6 o'clock.

The Steamtugs
Two steamtugs, with a Government official on each, bearing sealed dispatches, were also sent. The Yankee left New York on Monday evening, 8th, and the Uncle Ben on Tuesday night.

The Launches
Nearly thirty of these boats-whose services are most useful in effecting a landing of troops over shoal water, and for attacking a discharging battery when covered with sand and gunny bags- have been taken out by the Powhatan and by the steam transports Atlantic, Baltic and Illinois.

Recapitulation
Vessels Guns Men
Sloop-of-war Pawnee 10 200
Sloop-of-war Powhatan 11 275
Cutter Harriet Lane 5 96
Steam Transport Atlantic 353
Steam Transport Baltic 160
Steam Transport Illinois 300
Steamtug Yankee Ordinary Crew
Steamtug Uncle Ben Ordinary Crew
Total number of vessels 8
Total number of guns (for marine service) 26
Total number of men and troops 1,380

It is understood that several transports are soon to be chartered, and dispatched to Charleston with troops and supplies.
________________________
Those ships that were assigned specifically to Charleston.
The ships assigned were the steam sloop-of-war USS Pawnee, steam sloop-of-war USS Powhatan, transporting motorized launches and about 300 sailors (secretly removed from the Charleston fleet to join in the forced reenforcement of Fort Pickens, Pensacola, Fla.), armed screw steamer USS Pochaontas, Revenue Cutter USS Harriet Lane, steamer Baltic transporting about 200 troops, composed of companies C and D of the 2nd U.S. Artillery, and three hired tug boats. The rest of the ships listed in the New York paper went to Pensacola.

That was not his plan so stop making up facts, the plan was to peacefully bring only food to the fort, but if hostilities were commenced then to land troops..Thats what the orders stated, thats what the Confederates spies told them and thats what Lincoln told them.If you have studied Sumter as you say you have then you know that...And why are you counting every sailor on the ships as part of this so called invasion force, were they planning on abandoning the ships and wading into Sumter?

 

[wilber6150]

So???? There was nothing in the truce that said the Confederates could not build up their defenses. Also as a new country what do you expect them to do with a hostile neighbor?? See that was the purpose of the truce to prevent bloodshed while negotiations were going on. Anderson violated this truce-- that is a fact of history and no amount of two stepping by you will change that facts.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

So your idea of a truce is to build up as many forces as you can while making sure the other side cant... Ahhhhh that makes sense now... Really shows the peaceful intent of the Confederacy...

 

[wilber6150]

No there is no difference between the claims. It is only you do not know, but that is another thread another time.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

When you post the entire bill that was passed and not your cherry picked part you will see that there is specific geographic locations that they are describing and Sumter is not part of them...

 

[wilber6150]

We also know Lincoln lied so what else is knew. A few pages back you and your buds were laughing talking about howLincoln outsmarted the Confederates by getting them to fire firts, he didn't outsmart anyone, they knew what was coming.
.

Why don't you post the part where Im laughing about Lincoln outsmarting the Confederates, go ahead I'll wait...Look carefully, as I have no sense of humor when it pretains to events that led to a war that ripped this nation apart..So I must have had an out of body experience and would really like to see what I wrote without remembering it...

 

[George Purvis]

Lets see you have used legislation that has nothing to do with Sumter to prove a point, have stated that Anderson had no authority to move to Sumter, in which I have shown you otherwise..Now you are playing word games, as I have said that he wasn't under orders to move to Sumter but had the authrization to occupy any of the three forts when he felt the need..Anderson would not state that he was ordered into Sumter, as he wasn't... You are looking for things that aren't there .
You also initially said that Bucannon supported S. Carolinas position on Sumter by allowing a truce then suddenly switched your position when reminded that he ordered the Star of the West operation.
You describe a few ships and men as a invasion fleet while ignoring the thousands of men that were beseiging Sumter..
I have shown you a letter from Anderson describing why he went to Sumter using almost the exact language that was in his orders, yet you deny that...So I suppose that it was some coincendence that the language he used was identical to what was put down in paper in Washington and signed off by Floyd...The very man who wanted charges pressed against Anderson but backed off when shown the signed written version of the verbal orders that Anderson was given..You are now even denying that Anderson felt threatened at Moultrie, yet know all about the crisis... So I guess the man that did everything he could not to start a war, just decided to move to Sumter for no reason at all?
There is a difference between doing something under orders as opposed to doing it under authorization..Just because a action was taken without orders does not mean it was taken without authorization. Anderson can truthfully say that he made the move to Sumter with out being ordered to, but thats different from saying that he wasn't authorized to.. The verbal orders he was under left the decesion to decide which fort of the three to move into up to him...

I haven't changed positions my position has remained the same throughout. Now you see I know what you are trying to do is to mirrow me and put up a summary of events. The truth is it is a good effort, however it distorts.
Facts still remains --

1. Right or wrong SC thought they had a claim on forts in Charleston.
2. There was truce between the US and CSA which Anderson broke and later a truce between Anderson and SC.
3. Anderson states he moved without orders or authorization. He had been assured no attack would be made on his command as long as he stayed at Moultrie.
4. Anderson's last verbal orders were Dec. 11, 1860; I have posted written orders dated Dec. 21, 1860.
5. He did the one thing he should not have done and that was to move to Sumter.
6. What you are trying to do is twist facts. At the time Anderson moved to Sumter there was an agreement that such action would not be taken by either side, the Confederates could have easily went to Sumter first, they controlled the harbor. Once Anderson moved to Sumter, in December 26, 1860, the opening of tensions started in earnest, The Star of the West incident happened Jan. 9, 1861, and then the truces of no hostile actions came into play and remained in effect until Lincoln planned his invasion fleet. No don't you find it strange Anderson need supplies and re-enforcements within a two week span when no hostilities had been declared???

BTW I do understand orders haveing served in the US Navy.

GP
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4