The Confederacy needed Hadrian Wall...

[Tielhard]

I see you an AK-47 and raise you a Dalek horde.

Seriously, a high linear wall in the age of rifled shell guns? Hadrian's target.

 

[5fish]

I want to point out these defensive barriers and fortifications would have only been needed for less than 10 years... until the war weariness brought victory to the South... The South only needed a tie to win... Great Walls form the past...

The first great Wall... "Amorite Wall"...

The world's earliest known civilization was also one of the first to build a defensive wall. During the 21st century B.C., the ancient Sumerian rulers Shulgi and Shu-Sin constructed a massive fortified barrier to keep out the Amorites, a group of nomadic tribesmen who had been making incursions into Mesopotamia. This "Amorite Wall" is believed to have stretched for over a hundred miles between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq. It was likely the first extensive rampart not built around a city, but it only succeeded in fending off the Sumerians' enemies for a few years. Hostile invaders either penetrated the wall or simply walked around it, and by the reign of Shu-Sin's successor, Ibbi-Sin, Sumer found itself under attack from both the Amorites and the neighboring Elamites. After the destruction of the city of Ur around 2000 B.C., Sumerian culture began to vanish from history.

The Greeks "Longwall "worked...

Around 461 B.C., the Athenians sought to correct this vulnerability by constructing a series of barriers to connect the city center to the vital harbors of Piraeus and Phalerum. When completed, these "Long Walls" created a siege-proof triangle of land that allowed the city to easily resupply itself from the sea, which was itself guarded by the mighty Athenian navy. The fortifications made Athens all but impregnable during the Peloponnesian War with Sparta and its allies, but the city was later forced to surrender after its navy was defeated at sea. The victorious Spartans are then said to have dismantled the hated Long Walls to the sound of celebratory music from flute girls. The barriers were later rebuilt, however, and continued to stand until 86 B.C., when they were destroyed by the Roman general Sulla.

Alexander had a wall until Later they figured it was not for him... it may have worked...

Also known as the "Red Snake" for its distinctive red-colored bricks, the "Great Wall of Gorgon" was a 121-mile rampart that extended from the southern coast of the Caspian Sea to the Elburz Mountains in what is now Iran. It was once thought to have been the work of Alexander the Great—it was even known as "Alexander's Barrier"—but more recent research suggests it was built by the Sasanian Persians sometime around the 5th century A.D. When completed, it was one of the longest walls of antiquity and boasted more than 30 forts, a garrison of 30,000 troops and a network of canals that acted as both a water supply system and a defensive moat. Surprisingly little is known about the wall's history, but most scholars believe the Persians used it to guard against the Hephthalite Huns and other enemies to the north.

The Great Walls of Byzantine...

The Byzantine metropolis of Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) flourished for over a millennium thanks in part to the strength of its defensive walls. More than 14 miles of barricades surrounded the city, but the most famous were the Theodosian Walls, which blocked armies from advancing from the mainland. They included a moat, a 27-foot outer wall and a massive inner wall that was 40 feet tall and 15 feet thick. Troops stood guard on the ramparts at all times, ready to rain arrows and a type of ancient napalm called "Greek fire" on any enemy that dared attack them. The walls succeeded in turning back a host of would-be conquerors from the Arabs to Attila the Hun, but they finally met their match in 1453, when the Ottoman Empire besieged the city with a frightening new weapon—the cannon. After using their artillery to blast holes in the walls, the Turks poured through the breach and captured Constantinople, effectively toppling the Byzantine Empire.

https://www.history.com/news/7-famous-border-walls

 

[5fish]

The problem with the whole concept of a wall or a line of fixed fortifications is that the USA had a navy. However long you build your fortifications, they just sail around it and attack in your rear.

I have pointed out ... I never understood why the South never made the rivers impassable with barriers. They should have made the rivers useless to all...

 

[ErnieMac]

I have pointed out ... I never understood why the South never made the rivers impassable with barriers. They should have made the rivers useless to all...

They tried at New Orleans and Columbus, KY with chain barriers across the Mississippi. Farragut forced his way thru at New Orleans. Grant outflanked Columbus.

 

[Tom Elmore]

The invention of gunpowder changed the calculus. As noted above, Constantinople (Istanbul) fell to Turkish artillery firing stone shot in the mid-1400s. Artillery has been evolving ever since. Talk about fighting the last war!

Incidentally, the Byzantines also put up a chain across the main waterway to stop Turkish ships, which worked well until one morning they awoke to find Turkish vessels on their side of the chain (the Turks had rolled their ships across land to circumvent the chain).

Artillery aside, the North had greater manpower and could have overrun a wall like that simultaneously at several points, just like the "barbarian" tribes eventually did to the western Roman limes when they finally coordinated their efforts.

 

[Jimklag]

I have pointed out ... I never understood why the South never made the rivers impassable with barriers. They should have made the rivers useless to all...

There are 600+ miles of Mississippi River between Cairo, Illinois and the Gulf of Mexico. The Cumberland and Tennessee Rivers each dive over 200 miles into the heart of the confederacy from Paducah, Ky. How in the world, in 1861, is the agrarian south going to build barriers to keep the US river fleet from using over 1000 miles of navigable rivers? All while your enemy is sending large armies to stop you from doing it. If they, by a miracle, constructed river obstacles, the superior northern engineers, with the support of the army and navy, would just blow them up. How do you make the Chesapeake Bay useless to an enemy navy? Or the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico?

 

[5fish]

the US river fleet from using over 1000 miles of navigable rivers?

The rivers in the west mainly but some in the east... I bet there are more than a few ways to make rivers unfriendly to boat and ship traffic. I can think of a few: sinking ships and boats(stone fleet) to block the waterways, using timbers block waterways similar to what the Vietnamese did at the Battle of Bach Dang, and etc... I know over time the navy will clear the waterways but again we are trying to drag the war out...

They tried at New Orleans and Columbus, KY with chain barriers across the Mississippi. Farragut forced his way thru at New Orleans. Grant outflanked Columbus.

Read about these, I bet they were thinking of Byzantines with this idea... This method you are trying to keep the waterways open to traffic. I am talking about blocking all traffic until the war is over...

Incidentally, the Byzantines also put up a chain across the main waterway to stop Turkish ships, which worked well until one morning they awoke to find Turkish vessels on their side of the chain (the Turks had rolled their ships across land to circumvent the chain).

I read about this, it was a shocker to the Byzantines...

 

[5fish]

Check out Harry Turtledove's, Guns of the South, for how well that theory works.

How about this story: The Great Confederate Wall along with them getting the Prussian Dreyse needle guns... bring victory!

 

[Jimklag]

How about this story: The Great Confederate Wall along with them getting the Prussian Dreyse needle guns... bring victory!

Tell you what - why not give them the 8th Air Force and the 4th Armored Division. Then, maybe they win.

 

[unionblue]

How about this story: The Great Confederate Wall along with them getting the Prussian Dreyse needle guns... bring victory!

Another Alternate History, fictional, novel?

Why not?

Then we won't have to deal with such annoying stuff, like historical evidence or fact.

That's the fun of such a field of fiction. We can "interpret" history any way we want.

 

[steve59p]

The ANV had more men plus slave labor to build trenches and fortification. They could have called it "Lee's Wall" ...

The problem, other than manning such a defence is they don't have 6 years to build it. Plus you need something a lot more sophisticated in the 1860's than a linear defensive stone wall.

 

[tony_gunter]

Surely you are pulling our legs?

Of what would the south have built it? Cotton? You're talking about enough material for a wall 1200 miles long.

I think a better option would have been for them all to burrow underground and live as troglodytes.

 

[steve59p]

Tell you what - why not give them the 8th Air Force and the 4th Armored Division. Then, maybe they win.

Only they have the fuel, munitions and men who are capable of operating the weapons and willing to fight for the south. Not to mention a set of working air fields for the a/c.

 

[unionblue]

No, you're all wrong.

The only thing that would have worked if Jefferson Davis had been able to gain recognition from the alien grays so that they might have used their saucers against those evil Yankees.

But, I understand that ol' Jeff simply lacked the "interpretation" skills needed, so that option went out the window.

 

[leftyhunter]

One can argue the many mistakes the Confederacy made during the civil war. I argue the three-big strategic mistakes were their King Cotton foreign policy, Davis insistence on trying to keep border integrity, and Lee's insistence desire to crush the Union army with his much smaller force... I will say King Cotton foreign policy may have worked if they had promise nations cheap cotton for recognition and support, instead of a cotton embargo...

The point of this What if is to address Davis and Lee failed visions. The Confederacy strategy should have been to drag the war out and allow war weariness in the North to win the war. The Confederacy should have looked back to history and follow the Chinse and Romans strategy of walls and fortification along the borders. I say the Confederacy should have used trenches and fortification in strategic places to stimy Northern efforts to invade instead on open warfare. Here are Rome's Limes! See not everywhere just in strategic places and excess points...

Only if the Confederate Leadership could have been so farsighted and creative, they could have used the rivers and mountains and trenches to make it almost impossible to invade in the east and in the west they could have a network of trenches fortification to protect vital infrastructure, croplands and stop the invader. A trench and fortification strategy would have drag out the war for years causing war weariness in the North and leading to victory. With this strategy, Atlanta may not have followed before 1864 election and giving the election to McClellan. Grant may have been stimy in the west and never rose in the ranks to lead all the Union armies. Think about it no Gettysburg or Sharpsburg...

It takes fewer men to defend a fortified position than it takes to overrun it. The old rule of thumb is a three to one ratio to attacker versus defenders. Yes, I am talking about World War One like trenches across Virginia parts of Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama protecting the core of the Confederacy. I never understood why the Confederacy never spiked the rivers in the west stopping all traffic... If the union tries to land troops along the coast again pick strategic places to put your tranches and fortifications to stimy any advance inland... The Overland campaign showed how quickly made fortifications are hard to overrun if not impossible.

I know you going to bring up the siege of Petersburg but that was not planned in advance and done at the end of the war after the Confederacy had little to no resources left. If they follow the strategy of conservation during the war they would have won... Davis strategy was wasteful of men and Lee's strategy of open warfare was unsustainable in men and supplies.

The Confederacy needed its own Hadrian Wall or Maginot Line or a few Roman Limes...

Maybe I forgot but what war in the last 200 years was won by solely using defensive measures?
A defensive war does not prevent a Union naval blockade which in and of itself makes keeping slaves economically infeasible.
The Confederacy with all its troops tied up on defensive fortifications is going to allow Texas and Louisiana to easily fall to the Union. This gives the Union the ability to easily sell cotton and also gain new black and white recruits.
The Union can easily use cavalry raids to free slaves and cause havoc since the vast majority of Confederate troops are bottled up in fortifications.
As previously mentioned sanitation will be a major problem as will feeding large numbers of men with a less then adequate rail roads.
The Union would also find a way to attack any major food producing area so the defensive Confederate Army would starve.
Leftyhunter

 

[5fish]

WW one trenches in America... They built dummy trenches to teach soldiers about trench warfare... some snippets...

the link to the story... https://www.nps.gov/articles/training-for-trench-warfare.htm

During the American Civil War, Union and Confederate troops perfected the most sophisticated system of earthworks ever seen in battle. The Siege of Petersburg, June 1864 – April 1865, provides a snapshot of the birth of modern trench warfare, revealing significant developments in engineering and evolving military tactics and strategy due to advancements in technology, like rifled artillery. As a key supply center for the Confederate capital at Richmond, Virginia it was apparent to both Confederate General Robert E. Lee and Union General Ulysses S. Grant that if Petersburg was cut off, Richmond would fall and the war would be over. What resulted was an entrenched front that stretched for nearly 40 miles and 70,000 casualties over the course of ten months. The brutality of trench warfare in the Civil War was but a tiny preview of the horrors to come in World War I, just fifty years later.

In June, Camp Lee, named in honor of Robert E. Lee, was established near the battlefields of Petersburg where evidence of the siege still marred the earth.

Due to these less than ideal circumstances, the War Department created guidance which outlined a 16-week course on the scope of training necessary to provide new divisions with instruction on trench warfare. The booklet directed commanders to construct trench systems within each cantonment area, reiterating that "Instruction in trench warfare cannot be properly developed without a trench system. It will be one of the first duties of a division commander [...]." The Department further issued a directive of notes compiled by the British General Staff which contained detailed information about the construction and use of trenches.

 

[5fish]

There were great walls in China before the "Great Wall" ...

Gary Feinman, who is with the Field Museum of Chicago, didn't set out to excavate what he now calls "the first Great Wall." He was simply walking around eastern China's Shandong province, staring at the ground like any good archaeologist, looking for tiny pieces of pottery.

Link... https://www.npr.org/2013/12/29/255550362/centuries-before-chinas-great-wall-there-was-another

 

[5fish]

India has a Great Wall...

The wall that surrounds the ancient fort of Kumbhalgarh is one of the best-kept secrets in India, and perhaps the world. Protecting a massive fort that contains over 300 ancient temples, the wall was constructed half a millennium ago in tandem with Kumbhalgarh Fort itself.

Head to Kumbhalgarh in Rajasthan. There you'll find a 15th-century hilltop fort surrounded by a 22-mile protective perimeter known as the Great Wall of India. Built by Rana Kumbha, then ruler of the western Indian region of Mewar, the fort has over 360 temples scattered within its boundary walls.

Link with pictures... http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_ob...eter_is_known_as_the_great_wall_of_india.html

 

[5fish]

Even the Serbs have a Great Wall...

AN unknown ancient Great Wall – dating to the first millennium BC – has been found in Siberia, a leading archeologist revealed today.

The giant ramparts, compared in significance to Hadrian's Wall, guarded the Altai Mountains against attack from the steppes to the north and were built by an unknown civilisation.

Standing up to 26ft tall, and 33ft wide, the impressive fortifications are now overgrown with grass and trees and barely visible to the naked eye.

Six parallel lines of wall, made with giant stones, limited access to the high mountains via the valley of the Katun River, said Professor Andrey Borodovsky, of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography in Novosibirsk, part of the Siberian branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences

 

[unionblue]

Timing is everything.

For everything, there is a season.

At one time, castle walls and brick forts served a purpose.

But by 1861, their time was over.

Dirt and logs had replaced stone walls and for good reason. Trenches were king for their season. By WWII, defensive structures like trenches had been replaced by dragon's teeth, barbed wire, and pill boxes. Armored warfare made static defenses almost useless. Look at all the effort for a German Atlantic Wall, breached in one day. Look at all the preparation of Iraq at defensive walls at the beginning of Desert Storm and how little they effected the outcome.

A stone wall does not a defense make if it fails to take into account the timing of it's construction.