Restricted Debate Would the USA be better off to have let the Confederate states go peaceably ?

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#61
The hill before Shuri castle on Okinawa was covered with the blood and guts of these soldiers. They took the hill after 10 assaults. As far as I'm concerned they could have flown any flag they wanted. A major made them take the flag down after an hour. Many of the men in that company were non-southern. I do not think the US of A would be the same without people from the South. Southerners are the soul of the nation. I am glad the union was preserved and slavery should have been abolished from the get go.

Marine_Raises_FlagShuri_Palace.jpg
 

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#62
I can envision a number of scenarios playing out where things would have turned out just fine for the remaining states in the Union, the new Southern Confederacy and the world at large.
Agreed
I certainly wish the USA had done so; one thing for sure, the South would have been better off.
i would have been glad to see it go.
 
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#64
In my mind, had the South been allowed to secede without intervention from the North, a war between the state would still have almost certainly occurred, but that war may have been even more deadly had the South had time to accumulate arms and better prepare its defenses.

The reason I believe a war would have been pretty much inevitable is that there would have still been a great deal of conflict over what would happen to the "unsettled" territories in the West that were legally U.S. property and the issue of what would happen when slaves ran away to U.S. territory, whether an official state or the West, and when citizens refused to send runaways back to the Confederacy.
 

Viper21

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#65
This is what it’s all about for your crowd. It is the same southern mentality that started the war. Sour grapes.
Once again, you are way off base. Objecting to condescension is sour grapes..? Plenty of folks in my crowd, simply refuse to allow virtuous Yankees to define us, or our heritage. It's possible to have dialogue with those of differing ideologies, backgrounds, & status in life. Plenty choose not to. Typically, it's referred to as, bad manners. You hurled the accusation at me the other day of, using the word Yankee in a derogatory manner. Which is true in some cases though, mostly without malice or mean spirit. Often simply to define that side of the conversation. Yet, you think nothing of spewing much condescension, hate, & vitriol at others yourself. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
 
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#67
Once again, you are way off base. Objecting to condescension is sour grapes..? Plenty of folks in my crowd, simply refuse to allow virtuous Yankees to define us, or our heritage. It's possible to have dialogue with those of differing ideologies, backgrounds, & status in life. Plenty choose not to. Typically, it's referred to as, bad manners. You hurled the accusation at me the other day of, using the word Yankee in a derogatory manner. Which is true in some cases though, mostly without malice or mean spirit. Often simply to define that side of the conversation. Yet, you think nothing of spewing much condescension, hate, & vitriol at others yourself. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
Doctor heal thy self.
 
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#68
The hill before Shuri castle on Okinawa was covered with the blood and guts of these soldiers. They took the hill after 10 assaults. As far as I'm concerned they could have flown any flag they wanted. A major made them take the flag down after an hour. Many of the men in that company were non-southern. I do not think the US of A would be the same without people from the South. Southerners are the soul of the nation. I am glad the union was preserved and slavery should have been abolished from the get go.

View attachment 311470

@Viper21
Fake. I knew it as soon as i saw it. However there were soldiers and even officers that sported confederate flags and regalia. So why do you need fake heritage ?

https://deadconfederates.com/2018/02/10/more-dishonest-heritage-photoshop-phun-edition/
 
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#69
Perfect example of southern nationalism. You will deny this but i’ll Bet you wouldn’t claim state identity over national identity if you were from say... Minnesota ? Do you think southerners ‘over there’ denied being yanks ?
I'm not a perfect example but I am pretty close. Southern boys "over there" probably did giggle a lot about being called "yanks".
 
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#70
Might have something to do with a section of the Country who Waves the flag, vs a section that takes the Knee.

Might want to look and see where people are moving to, for work and where people are moving from, to get there. Hint, It ain't the Big Cities of the Mid-West, North East or Kalifornia. The job growth is in the South.
You might want to look at Southern state government subsidies as well. You might also look at less worker protections and lower wages.

Leftyhunter
 
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#71
Would losing so much territory unchallenged not have gone against the manifest destiny doctrine that required the expansion of the nation.
 
Last edited:
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#72
I still think that my earlier comments are correct, and that the US would not have been better off by letting the South go peacefully (though the South would have), but on the other hand, I wonder how the Union war dead would have answered this question? Some gave their lives willingly for the Union, but many were forced into the war for one reason or another. I wonder how they would answer the question? How different would this country be if those men had not died? What would they have contributed?

The same could be asked for the Southern dead as well.
 
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#74
Would losing so much territory go unchallenged not have gone against the manifest destiny doctrine that required the expansion of the nation.
We were expanding and had union states on the pacific coast. My position in allowing the slaves states to go would not include anything but their state, no territories . That would be a deal breaker although as someone pointed out could become an issue after separation.
 
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#76
@Viper21
Fake. I knew it as soon as i saw it. However there were soldiers and even officers that sported confederate flags and regalia. So why do you need fake heritage ?

https://deadconfederates.com/2018/02/10/more-dishonest-heritage-photoshop-phun-edition/
It's hard to tell what is real and what is fake these days. That photo may well be a fake but the story stands true. Sledge was there and he says it happened.

Eugene Sledge writes:
"Earlier in the morning [of May 29, 1945] . . . Marines had attacked eastward into the rains of Shuri Castle and had raised the Confederate flag. When we learned that the flag of the Confederacy had been hoisted over the very heart and soul of Japanese resistance, all of us Southerners cheered loudly. The Yankees among us grumbled . . ."

Yet John, I copied and pasted the quote off the internet, so even the quote could be fake. I have heard the story many times in history books about Okinawa.

wwii-confed.jpg
 
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#77
It's hard to tell what is real and what is fake these days. That photo may well be a fake but the story stands true. Sledge was there and he says it happened.

Eugene Sledge writes:
"Earlier in the morning [of May 29, 1945] . . . Marines had attacked eastward into the rains of Shuri Castle and had raised the Confederate flag. When we learned that the flag of the Confederacy had been hoisted over the very heart and soul of Japanese resistance, all of us Southerners cheered loudly. The Yankees among us grumbled . . ."

View attachment 311499
That is not the same photo. Why the need for deception ?
 
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#79
Plenty of folks in my crowd, simply refuse to allow virtuous Yankees to define us, or our heritage.
Familiarity breeds contempt. Take a look at how you have personally insulted me in the past. I don’t hate you but i do have contempt for you and the confederacy. contempt is disapproval tinged with disgust.
 
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#80
In a word no. In a more diverse explanation, it would have been national suicide. Letting the Confederacy go, peacefully (or by force of arms) would have been a bold faced admission that the government in Washington did not control the nation from sea to shining sea and was no longer the dominant power on the continent. Setting aside loss in war, a peaceful secession is even worse. It establishes secession as a viable alternative to participating in the national government or economy. There is no need to obey Washington when you can freely leave to join another nation or make your own.

Imagine in 1861, all the slave states secede, the Utah Territory, citing precedent and its own desires, secedes as well. The Pacific States and territories, as yet unconnected by railroads, decide that they have been given the short shift and also choose to secede shortly thereafter. Instead of one unbroken nation stretching from coast to coast it is one larger, more powerful nation, and a patchwork of smaller ones which have varying regional interests.

This could lead to future disastrous wars, foreign meddling on the continent or in the Caribbean. There is no longer a United States to oppose European intervention in the Western hemisphere.
 



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