Restricted Debate Would the USA be better off to have let the Confederate states go peaceably ?

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#1
Someone posted this from another thread.
This country wouldn't be squat on the world stage without the sweat, blood, & tears of Southerners. Believe what you want Mr Economics but, those military uniforms are filled by Southerners at a greater % than our population represents. Without their sacrifices in every major conflict this country has ever seen, & continues to see, we may not exist in our current form.

Is this true ? Has the south caused more good than harm ? Did southern participation in men and resources make the difference in all of our conflicts ? Was winning wars what put the country on the world stage and continues to keep it there ? What % of the efforts were southern efforts ?
Although i honor and appreciate every man in a United States uniform or has ever worn one , could the ex-confederate southern states contribution been made up ? The poster above did not know what i meant by “over there” but we were all Yankees at that time. Did southern participation make the difference ?
The poster only mentions wars but what about the “internal war” that has been fought since ? What about the innovations, inventions, industrialization (which is what made the difference ‘over there’ ) and GNP . On balance is the United States better off for having kept the union intact ?

George m. Cohen was quite a diplomat. He united Johnnie Reb and Billy Yank and we are all Yankees who made a difference on the world stage.

Johnnie, get your gun
Get your gun, get your gun
Take it on the run
On the run, on the run
Hear them calling, you and me
Every son of liberty
Hurry right away
No delay, go today
Make your daddy glad
To have had such a lad
Tell your sweetheart not to pine
To be proud her boy's in line
Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming
The Yanks are coming
The drums rum-tumming
Everywhere
So prepare, say a prayer
Send the word, send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there
Johnnie, get your gun
Get your gun, get your gun
Johnnie show the Hun
Who's a son of a gun
Hoist the flag and let her fly
Yankee Doodle do or die
Pack your little kit
Show your grit, do your bit
Yankee to the ranks
From the towns and the tanks
Make your mother proud of you
And the old Red, White and Blue


Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming
The Yanks are coming
The drums rum-tumming
Everywhere
So prepare, say a prayer
Send the word, send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there
 
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#2
Someone posted this from another thread.
This country wouldn't be squat on the world stage without the sweat, blood, & tears of Southerners. Believe what you want Mr Economics but, those military uniforms are filled by Southerners at a greater % than our population represents. Without their sacrifices in every major conflict this country has ever seen, & continues to see, we may not exist in our current form.

Is this true ? Has the south caused more good than harm ? Did southern participation in men and resources make the difference in all of our conflicts ? Was winning wars what put the country on the world stage and continues to keep it there ? What % of the efforts were southern efforts ?
Although i honor and appreciate every man in a United States uniform or has ever worn one , could the ex-confederate southern states contribution been made up ? The poster above did not know what i meant by “over there” but we were all Yankees at that time. Did southern participation make the difference ?
The poster only mentions wars but what about the “internal war” that has been fought since ? What about the innovations, inventions, industrialization (which is what made the difference ‘over there’ ) and GNP . On balance is the United States better off for having kept the union intact ?

George m. Cohen was quite a diplomat. He united Johnnie Reb and Billy Yank and we are all Yankees who made a difference on the world stage.

Johnnie, get your gun
Get your gun, get your gun
Take it on the run
On the run, on the run
Hear them calling, you and me
Every son of liberty
Hurry right away
No delay, go today
Make your daddy glad
To have had such a lad
Tell your sweetheart not to pine
To be proud her boy's in line
Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming
The Yanks are coming
The drums rum-tumming
Everywhere
So prepare, say a prayer
Send the word, send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there
Johnnie, get your gun
Get your gun, get your gun
Johnnie show the Hun
Who's a son of a gun
Hoist the flag and let her fly
Yankee Doodle do or die
Pack your little kit
Show your grit, do your bit
Yankee to the ranks
From the towns and the tanks
Make your mother proud of you
And the old Red, White and Blue


Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming
The Yanks are coming
The drums rum-tumming
Everywhere
So prepare, say a prayer
Send the word, send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there
That's a tricky question because in history nation or sections of nations do separate and in our lifetimes have done so violently and in at least one case non violently.
Ab interesting "what if " is what if every Southern male of military age since the Spanish American War ( which was a relatively quick war with a limited amount of soldiers) simply refused to be drafted and or volunteer for military and just accepted a five year prison term for refusing to serve in the US military? If Southern whites truly fought for political Independence not over the issue of slavery that would be a small sacrifice to make.
Leftyhunter
 
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Messages
207
#3
Someone posted this from another thread.
This country wouldn't be squat on the world stage without the sweat, blood, & tears of Southerners. Believe what you want Mr Economics but, those military uniforms are filled by Southerners at a greater % than our population represents. Without their sacrifices in every major conflict this country has ever seen, & continues to see, we may not exist in our current form.

Is this true ? Has the south caused more good than harm ? Did southern participation in men and resources make the difference in all of our conflicts ? Was winning wars what put the country on the world stage and continues to keep it there ? What % of the efforts were southern efforts ?
Although i honor and appreciate every man in a United States uniform or has ever worn one , could the ex-confederate southern states contribution been made up ? The poster above did not know what i meant by “over there” but we were all Yankees at that time. Did southern participation make the difference ?
The poster only mentions wars but what about the “internal war” that has been fought since ? What about the innovations, inventions, industrialization (which is what made the difference ‘over there’ ) and GNP . On balance is the United States better off for having kept the union intact ?

George m. Cohen was quite a diplomat. He united Johnnie Reb and Billy Yank and we are all Yankees who made a difference on the world stage.

Johnnie, get your gun
Get your gun, get your gun
Take it on the run
On the run, on the run
Hear them calling, you and me
Every son of liberty
Hurry right away
No delay, go today
Make your daddy glad
To have had such a lad
Tell your sweetheart not to pine
To be proud her boy's in line
Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming
The Yanks are coming
The drums rum-tumming
Everywhere
So prepare, say a prayer
Send the word, send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there
Johnnie, get your gun
Get your gun, get your gun
Johnnie show the Hun
Who's a son of a gun
Hoist the flag and let her fly
Yankee Doodle do or die
Pack your little kit
Show your grit, do your bit
Yankee to the ranks
From the towns and the tanks
Make your mother proud of you
And the old Red, White and Blue


Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming
The Yanks are coming
The drums rum-tumming
Everywhere
So prepare, say a prayer
Send the word, send the word to beware
We'll be over, we're coming over
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there
Good post. Thanks
 
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Messages
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#5
A ridiculous thread imo. We are all Americans. Americans of every race and many different nationalities have made contributions to make this country great. Many have given the ultimate sacrifice from every State in this Union. Why the need to prove one section has done more than another? Yes, this country is better off intact, without question. As someone who has ancestors that have fought in every major war this country has seen and those who have been educators, nurses, engineers, business owners, etc., I can truly say what's important is that we are all Americans.
 

major bill

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#6
Trying to guess what would happen over 150 years is not really possible. I do not fully believe separation without a war in 1861 was possible. There were so many flash points in 1861 that could have prevented a peaceful separation. Then we would have had 150 with other possible wars. There may have been zero wars between the two nations or three or four wars. It would not appear that either nation would have became the major world power the United States became. The two nations may well have been on opposite sides on many of the world's wars. Say if during World War One the Confederacy and Union were fighting battles here, neither could have provided much supported to the side they backed in Europe and Asia.

I am assuming both nations would have had trading partners around the world and thus international concerns. What those concerns would have been and who each nation supported remains difficult to predict.
 

uaskme

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Messages
2,118
#8
Canada has fought on the side of the U S along with the Brits and others. No reason to think that the North and South would of supported different Axis Countries. Or would of been enemies.

However, the constant drum that the South was a drag on the Country since the beginning of Time is simply, ridiculous. South made no Contributions, 1 Cotton pony. Still is BS. I which, Mr Econ and the other Haters, would just let go, and tell us, why they are Haters. Maybe Mr Econ lost his Virginity in the South? Get it off your shoulders, and maybe be a Man for once? Let’s have at it!
 
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#9
A ridiculous thread imo. We are all Americans.
You are free to ignore it. We are all Americans and i said as much in my post.
Why the need to prove one section has done more than another? Yes, this country is better off intact, without question.
i asked for your opinion not proof. It was not really my question as i thought i made clear. I only asked if it was true. If we are united as Americans, Yankees, why all the southern nationalism in this day and age ? The world stage sees us as “Yanks” whether from north or south, why is it so hard for us ? and has it been worth it to either side ?
 
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#10
Regarding the poster's assertion that the US may not exist in its current form but for Southerners in the US Armed Force's is really hard to say. Really since the ACW all wars the US have fought are wars of choice other then the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor. Even then one historian estimated that only fifteen percent of the US military might was directed against the Japanese. Yes the Germans did declare war on the US three days later but they could not even invade England a mere twenty miles away. So it's an interesting assertion but no way to really prove it.
Leftyhunter
 
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#13
Trying to guess what would happen over 150 years is not really possible. I do not fully believe separation without a war in 1861 was possible.
Well it’s a guess or opinion and that is why i put it in this forum. I also believe war was inevitable with lincoln’s Election but many here claim the south just wanted to go in peace. Why not ?
The union already had the pacific coast and barring any claim by the confederacy to the territories , why not let them go ? Would there even have been a confederacy if the states left peaceably ? We still could have gotten their cotton cheaper than England. The posters implication is that the southern contribution to all wars since made the difference in winning and losing. I don’t believe that. I believe we could have let the south go and traded with them without major repercussions to our economy or military might, and in fact did so while the south rebuilt.
 
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#14
You are free to ignore it. We are all Americans and i said as much in my post.

i asked for your opinion not proof. It was not really my question as i thought i made clear. I only asked if it was true. If we are united as Americans, Yankees, why all the southern nationalism in this day and age ? The world stage sees us as “Yanks” whether from north or south, why is it so hard for us ? and has it been worth it to either side ?
I think you are way off base. What southern nationalism are you referring too? A bit of banter on a message board? The new South is quite a diverse place, with many transplants. I can tell you it has changed greatly over the last 30 years. My kids barely have a southern accent, if at all. I work with folks from all over the world. Different thoughts and ideas permeate the southern culture now. Southern nationalism as you call it has been in decline for a while. Whether you see that as positive or negative is up to you.
 
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#15
I am very proud of my Confederate ancestors but even more proud of my father, uncles and brother in law who fought for the United States in WW II, Korea, Viet Nam and Iraq/Afghanistan. It is a good thing that the South lost and we once again are a united nation.
Regards
David
I also believe it is a good thing that we are a united (for the most part) nation. My question is was it necessary ? Could the USA avoided the bloodshed and civil strife since the acw and still met the challenges of the future without southern participation ? My title says “better off” and should have said politically , economically , and militarily equivalent.
 

lelliott19

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#16
According to demographics provided by the Department of Defense....In 2013, 44% of all military recruits came from the South region of the U.S. despite it having only 36% of the country's 18-24 year-old civilian population. The Northeast of the U.S. was the most underrepresented region of the country for recruitment in 2013: Despite having 18% of the 18-24 year-old civilian population only 14% of new enlistments came from this area. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-is-not-representative-of-country-2014-7

"New recruits are also disproportionately likely to come from the South, which is in line with the history of Southern military tradition." https://www.heritage.org/defense/re...the-demographics-enlisted-troops-and-officers

Between 1990 and 2000, the number of veterans decreased in every region except the south, where it increased by 6.7%. The largest decline was in the Northeast, where the number of veterans dropped 15.4%. The veteran population fell 7.6% in the Midwest and 2.7% in the West. https://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/censusatlas/pdf/12_Military-Service.pdf
 
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#17
What southern nationalism are you referring too?
These three men I ( Enoch Powell, Ace Carter and George Wallace) had a lasting and a profound effect upon the Kennedy Twins ( the author and his brother). By pointing out that Southerners are a defeated people and the spirit of 1776 and 1861 must be reawaken in Southerners or we will never be free, these three men shaped our lives for the next forty eight years. From 1966 with the formation of the Southern National Party (SNP), the first such effort since Appomattox, to this day many Southern Independence organizations have sprung up. They seem to grow for a few years only to dwindle away and be replaced by another “great hope” for freedom. Despite these organizations, today when the news media is buzzing about secession, no one seems to even notice the secession or independence movement in the South. Why is there no talk about freeing Dixie? Better yet, why the failure of so many organization in their effort to “Free Dixie?”
https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/blog/forty-eight-years-as-a-southern-nationalist/


About Walter D. (Donnie) Kennedy

Walter D. (Donnie) Kennedy was born and reared in Mississippi. Donnie moved to Louisiana at the age of 19. He received his bachelor’s degree form the University of Louisiana, Monroe, La. and graduated Charlotte Memorial Medical Center School of Anesthesia, Charlotte, NC. Donnie and his twin brother, Ron, are best known for their bestselling book, The South Was Right! having sold more than 130,000 copies as of 2014. The Kennedy Twins have written eight other books since the release of The South Was Right! as well as editing, annotating and republishing an 1825 textbook on the Constitution by William Rawle. Donnie is the author of Myths of American Slavery and Rekilling Lincoln, (release date, Spring 2015). Both Donnie and his twin brother have served as commander of the Louisiana Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans. They have received awards and special recognition from numerous conservative and Southern organizations. The Kennedy Twins have been interviewed by numerous media outlets such as British Broadcasting Corporation, French National T.V., Al Jazeera, and numerous American radio and T.V. hosts.
I don’t recommend these sources for truthful info but it answers the question.
 
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#18
According to demographics provided by the Department of Defense....In 2013, 44% of all military recruits came from the South region of the U.S. despite it having only 36% of the country's 18-24 year-old civilian population. The Northeast of the U.S. was the most underrepresented region of the country for recruitment in 2013: Despite having 18% of the 18-24 year-old civilian population only 14% of new enlistments came from this area. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-is-not-representative-of-country-2014-7

"New recruits are also disproportionately likely to come from the South, which is in line with the history of Southern military tradition." https://www.heritage.org/defense/re...the-demographics-enlisted-troops-and-officers

Between 1990 and 2000, the number of veterans decreased in every region except the south, where it increased by 6.7%. The largest decline was in the Northeast, where the number of veterans dropped 15.4%. The veteran population fell 7.6% in the Midwest and 2.7% in the West. https://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/censusatlas/pdf/12_Military-Service.pdf
These are stats for today , not every American conflict. One source said that economic opportunity did not factor in but i disagree. My own daughter enlisted for a job and college benefits rather than take student loans. In Vietnam people enlisted to stay out of jail.
My question is did southern participation make the difference in these conflicts or could the northern states , the USA, made up the difference in these conflicts. There is more to an army than men as the south well knows.
Other questions are , did the south use more resources than they contributed ? Has the south hindered or helped social and economic progress ?
I am not questioning southern bravery but did the US need it ? Was the cost to get it and apply it worth it ? Could these things been done without them ?
 

lelliott19

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#19
did southern participation make the difference in these conflicts or could the northern states , the USA,
So now you're using an appositive to suggest that the "northern states" are "the USA?" I'm sure all the currently enlisted and veterans from other parts of the country (West, Midwest, and South) will be lining up to agree with you on that. :nah disagree:

In response to your question - did southern participation make a difference in these conflicts - I have no idea. Why don't you create a formula to determine a numerical "bravery factor" for all soldiers and then apply it across the demographics to determine if the US could have won WWI, WWII, or any other war since 1865, without soldiers from other parts of the country besides the "northern states?" I just know that I wouldn't have wanted US to test the accuracy of that theory.
did the south use more resources than they contributed ?
Consumption of resources? Do you seriously believe that the southern region consumes more resources than it contributes? Texas produces 31% of the crude oil plus the 20% produced off shore in the Gulf of Mexico (southern region.) Texas produces 29% of the natural gas plus the 8% produced off shore in the Gulf (south.) California produces 78% of the geothermal electricity - CA is in the western region, not the northern states. https://18f.github.io/doi-extractives-data/sectors/
Maybe someone else will look up all the consumption stats for you - since I failed to provide the desired data to address your earlier question. Best of luck in your continued research.
 
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wbull1

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#20
This question at the top of this thread is based on the false premise that the southern states tried to leave peacefully. The southern states stole US arms, money, post offices and forts starting before secession and then started the shooting war. Possible peaceful options like seeking court rulings or going through the US House and Senate were available but were not taken.

As to the importance of southerners in subsequent military actions, there is no question in my mind. I also have no question about people with Hispanic backgrounds and native Americans making contributions beyond their numbers in the general population.

I personally suspect the phrasing of the question is argumentative, not to mention meaningless. Who the %$&## cares?
 
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