Golden Thread Would the Union Have Won the Civil War Without Immigrants ? (poll)

Would the Union Have Won the Civil War Without Immigrants ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 29.5%
  • No

    Votes: 36 59.0%
  • Don't Know

    Votes: 7 11.5%

  • Total voters
    61
The 1848-1850s surge of immigrants were mostly anti-slavery Germans and Irish, yes?

The Irish mostly ended up Democrats because anti-Catholics were mostly Whigs and Know Nothings mostly joined the Republicans. If circumstances are different and we end up with mostly Republican Irish immigrants is it enough to get Lincoln a majority instead of a plurality?

Immigrants caused the Civil War! :wink:
 
The 1848-1850s surge of immigrants were mostly anti-slavery Germans and Irish, yes?

The Irish mostly ended up Democrats because anti-Catholics were mostly Whigs and Know Nothings mostly joined the Republicans. If circumstances are different and we end up with mostly Republican Irish immigrants is it enough to get Lincoln a majority instead of a plurality?

Immigrants caused the Civil War! :wink:
I am not sure about the Irish Catholic's being anti slavery. Certainly the Pope at the time was not nor the Catholic Church has a whole. Not to say there were no Irish Abolitionists of either Catholic or Protestant faith.
McPherson argues that Irish and German Catholic's had the lowest volunteer enlistment rate of any white ethnic group. @Pat Young has argued against that.
Definitely the large German immigrant group in Missouri that was mostly Protestant and Jewish were pro Abolitionists.
Leftyhunter
 
The 1848-1850s surge of immigrants were mostly anti-slavery Germans and Irish, yes?

The Irish mostly ended up Democrats because anti-Catholics were mostly Whigs and Know Nothings mostly joined the Republicans. If circumstances are different and we end up with mostly Republican Irish immigrants is it enough to get Lincoln a majority instead of a plurality?

Immigrants caused the Civil War! :wink:

The portion of your post that I placed in BOLD font is basically true, but a little misleading:
14th point of the Republican platform of 1860.
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/republican-party-platform-1860/
"FOURTEENTH. That the republican party is opposed to any change in our naturalization laws, or any state legislation by which the rights of citizenship hitherto accorded by emigrants from foreign lands shall be abridged or impaired; and in favor of giving a full and efficient protection to the rights of all classes of citizens, whether native or naturalized, both at home and abroad."


This plank in the new partys' platform was a direct result to the following:
https://www.history.com/news/when-america-despised-the-irish-the-19th-centurys-refugee-crisis
"In 1849, a clandestine fraternal society of native-born Protestant men called the Order of the Star Spangled Banner formed in New York. Bound by sacred oaths and secret passwords, its members wanted a return to the America they once knew, a land of “Temperance, Liberty and Protestantism.” Similar secret societies with menacing names like the Black Snakes and Rough and Readies sprouted across the country."
"Within a few years, these societies coalesced around the anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant American Party, whose members were called the “Know-Nothings” because they claimed to “know nothing” when questioned about their politics. Party members vowed to elect only native-born citizens—but only if they weren’t Roman Catholic."
"...in Massachusetts the Know-Nothings mandated the reading of the King James Bible in public schools, disbanded Irish militia units while confiscating their weapons and deported nearly 300 poor Irish back to Liverpool because they were a drain on the public treasury. They also barred naturalized citizens from voting unless they had spent 21 years in the United States."


Lincoln's thoughts on all this Irish (Catholic) bashing?...
Abraham Lincoln was among the many Americans disturbed at the rise of the nativist movement as he explained in an 1855 letter: “As a nation, we began by declaring that ‘all men are created equal.’ We now practically read it ‘all men are created equal, except negroes.’ When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read ‘all men are created equal, except negroes and foreigners and Catholics.’ When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty—to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”

As to the final speculation on Majority vs Plurality...
Didn't make a difference. He won the election.
Lincoln garnered more electoral votes in 3 states than Breckinridge had all told.
Lincoln had more electoral votes than all of the other 3 candidates COMBINED from 7 states.
G3.04-elction-1860-800w.jpg
 
I am not sure about the Irish Catholic's being anti slavery. Certainly the Pope at the time was not nor the Catholic Church has a whole. Not to say there were no Irish Abolitionists of either Catholic or Protestant faith.
McPherson argues that Irish and German Catholic's had the lowest volunteer enlistment rate of any white ethnic group. @Pat Young has argued against that.
Definitely the large German immigrant group in Missouri that was mostly Protestant and Jewish were pro Abolitionists.

Sure poor immigrants were opposed to slavery, either out of self-serving reasons (competition) or empathy (many Irish having been reduce to conditions sometimes compared to slavery).

If the majority of Irish immigrants were pro-slavery it does not speak well of them even in the context of the time period.

The portion of your post that I placed in BOLD font is basically true, but a little misleading:

Know Nothings were mostly ex-Whigs and mostly became Republicans.

That doesn't mean Republicans were mostly Know Nothings. It was not my intent to imply otherwise.
 
Sure poor immigrants were opposed to slavery, either out of self-serving reasons (competition) or empathy (many Irish having been reduce to conditions sometimes compared to slavery).

If the majority of Irish immigrants were pro-slavery it does not speak well of them even in the context of the time period.



Know Nothings were mostly ex-Whigs and mostly became Republicans.

That doesn't mean Republicans were mostly Know Nothings. It was not my intent to imply otherwise.
My point is that many Catholic immigrants did not want to enlist in the Union Army and one reason was they did not want to risk their lives to end slavery. Yes there was the Irish Brigade but that is counter balanced by the vicious anti draft riots of July 1863.
It's not a question of Irish immigrant supporting slavery in the Northern states but not wanting to end slavery in the Confederate States.
Leftyhunter
 
Know Nothings were mostly ex-Whigs and mostly became Republicans.

That doesn't mean Republicans were mostly Know Nothings. It was not my intent to imply otherwise.

I agree wholeheartedly.
The new “Republicans” were well aware of the ugly Nativism that had gained so much favor, and they understood the import of the immigrant voting block; they put the “naturalization” plank into their platform to distance themselves from that movement, and thus draw those immigrants to the ticket.
 
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