Would the South Have Armed Slaves?

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Also, looking back at the original point :
Killing off Walker would be somewhat of a detriment to the scenario.
Even without accounting Walker, Cleburne recieved much backlash for Bate and Patton Anderson. Johnston would have merely had the issue silenced.
Without Walker's back door scheming, its unlikely that the proposal would meet Davis. The real turning point would be Lee and Benjamin backing the proposal, plus the Cobb-Dahlgren Affair.
Plus, it'd be the greatest political backfire in all of history.
 

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Also, looking back at the original point :
Killing off Walker would be somewhat of a detriment to the scenario.
Even without accounting Walker, Cleburne recieved much backlash for Bate and Patton Anderson. Johnston would have merely had the issue silenced.
Without Walker's back door scheming, its unlikely that the proposal would meet Davis. The real turning point would be Lee and Benjamin backing the proposal, plus the Cobb-Dahlgren Affair.
Plus, it'd be the greatest political backfire in all of history.
In retrospect, I shouldn't have included that, it was one of the first things that came to mind. I think killing off Hood would probably be better for the AoT as a whole; while I try to avoid conspiracy theories, I can't wonder if Hood didn't eliberately bungle some of his efforts to make Johnston look bad (Cassville?). This could allow Hindman to keep the corps, or for it to go to Cleburne.

I will say however that I like Liddell, cranky son of a gun that he was. Considering his views on black troops, he might support the proposal.
 
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Ive done some work detailing who'd be pro-C.S.C.T., anti-C.S.C.T., or merely neutral, in the AoT while I was working on a reorganized OoB for it for my Meteor project: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12MNqbu4ThFCcLc9AxwvIO4dODF7M7adUNnob0aHzxGM/edit?usp=sharing (Btw, do not trust those numbers; those are just numbers from war games, which may be bumped up for making the scenarios playable)
Currently working out the one for the AoNV.
So far, here's who I have for Generals and other officers who are:
Pro- :
- LTG Richard Ewell
- Robert E. Lee
- MG Patrick Cleburne
- BG Francis Shoup
- BG St. John Liddell
- BG Tige Anderson
- MG William Mahone
- BG Daniel Govan
- BG Mark P. Lowrey
- MG Thomas Hindman
- Colonel Leon von Zinken
- Colonel James Cooper Nisbet
- Col. George F. Baucum
- Col. Frederick A. Ashford
- Capt. Samuel T. Foster
- MG N. B. Forrest (hard choice; he can go either way; definitely need to do more specific research on the man before i can be certain)

Anti- :
- MG William H. T. Walker
- BG/MG Stephen Ramseur
- BG Henry L. Benning
- BG Clement Stevens
- MG William Bate
- MG Patton Anderson
- MG Braxton Bragg
- MG/LTG Jubal Early

This is what Ive settled on so far. Not sure if i should put J. B. Gordon or Kershaw as Pro- or Anti-. Definitely need more info for those in the AoNV
 
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Ive done some work detailing who'd be pro-C.S.C.T., anti-C.S.C.T., or merely neutral, in the AoT while I was working on a reorganized OoB for it for my Meteor project: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12MNqbu4ThFCcLc9AxwvIO4dODF7M7adUNnob0aHzxGM/edit?usp=sharing (Btw, do not trust those numbers; those are just numbers from war games, which may be bumped up for making the scenarios playable)
Currently working out the one for the AoNV.
So far, here's who I have for Generals and other officers who are:
Pro- :
- LTG Richard Ewell
- Robert E. Lee
- MG Patrick Cleburne
- BG Francis Shoup
- BG St. John Liddell
- BG Tige Anderson
- MG William Mahone
- BG Daniel Govan
- BG Mark P. Lowrey
- MG Thomas Hindman
- Colonel Leon von Zinken
- Colonel James Cooper Nisbet
- Col. George F. Baucum
- Col. Frederick A. Ashford
- Capt. Samuel T. Foster
- MG N. B. Forrest (hard choice; he can go either way; definitely need to do more specific research on the man before i can be certain)

Anti- :
- MG William H. T. Walker
- BG/MG Stephen Ramseur
- BG Henry L. Benning
- BG Clement Stevens
- MG William Bate
- MG Patton Anderson
- MG Braxton Bragg
- MG/LTG Jubal Early

This is what Ive settled on so far. Not sure if i should put J. B. Gordon or Kershaw as Pro- or Anti-. Definitely need more info for those in the AoNV[/QUOTE
Forrest was in favor of recruiting slaves. He was quoted in several newspapers as an advocate...see this thread.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/fo...-officer-asks-to-recruit-black-troops.124376/
 

MattL

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The north also dealt with prejudice against black men in the military, and took a few years to reach the point where it was widely permitted. The South took two more years to reach that point, albeit in a way that tried to preserve slavery as opposed to attacking it as the North did. Neither side welcomed these men into the military with open arms, and both sides made use of them in whatever way they saw fit. For Americans as a whole, north and south, it was an enormous social upheaval to experience in just four years.

It almost can't be viewed as two separate actions by two sides. It's action and reaction. I could probably make a count and tell you how many newspapers gave credit/blame to the South for starting the whole trend, but whoever first armed black men for whatever reason started an avalanche of societal change, and most knew it at the time.
Well said. In a lot of ways the Civil War didn't just ironically result in the empowerment of Blacks in the South (leading to the end of slavery etc) but also an empowerment in the the rest of the US too. This was an era of Black triumph with much of it through self organized groups. Post-reconstruction era resulted in massive backsteps (not just in the South, but pushes backwards elsewhere too in a lot of ways) but much was still gained and the memory of what was achievable was not forgotten. 100 years later those memories inspired further progress everywhere.

In a lot of ways that's a silver lining of the war for the entire US, not just the South. It started a ticking timer on much of Black suppression everywhere.
 
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Well said. In a lot of ways the Civil War didn't just ironically result in the empowerment of Blacks in the South (leading to the end of slavery etc) but also an empowerment in the the rest of the US too. This was an era of Black triumph with much of it through self organized groups. Post-reconstruction era resulted in massive backsteps (not just in the South, but pushes backwards elsewhere too in a lot of ways) but much was still gained and the memory of what was achievable was not forgotten. 100 years later those memories inspired further progress everywhere.

In a lot of ways that's a silver lining of the war for the entire US, not just the South. It started a ticking timer on much of Black suppression everywhere.
Indeed, only 30 miles from my home, there was the Camilla Massacre a few years after the war. There was also the 1906 Atlanta Race Riot (which is seldom talked about as much as other similar events for whatever reason). However, the pushback occurred in Northern cities as well. Some of the worst race riots in US history were in Kansas City and Chicago.
 
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As to what i said previously:
From my research, I doubt that Black troops would be assigned to certain commands known for atrocities against USCT troops, such as Colquitt's Ga Brigade (Murdered black prisoners after Fort Wagner and Olustee)
I doubt that Early and Gordon, given their postbellum activites, were pro-C.S.C.T. so I doubt that black troops would be assigned to 2nd Corps.
Mahone's Division I can certainly see black troops being used. Mahone, though he didnt support black causes postwar, was a reconciler through and through. Believe he'd be neutral if not supportive of the C.S.C.T. Plus, he has many rather young experienced officers like BG J. C. C. Sanders who'd id be willing to bet (though i might be wrong; doubt my research was thorough enough to spot certain dispositions on the issue) would eagerly lead black troops in their brigades.
 
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Ive done some work detailing who'd be pro-C.S.C.T., anti-C.S.C.T., or merely neutral, in the AoT while I was working on a reorganized OoB for it for my Meteor project: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12MNqbu4ThFCcLc9AxwvIO4dODF7M7adUNnob0aHzxGM/edit?usp=sharing (Btw, do not trust those numbers; those are just numbers from war games, which may be bumped up for making the scenarios playable)
Currently working out the one for the AoNV.
So far, here's who I have for Generals and other officers who are:
Pro- :
- LTG Richard Ewell
- Robert E. Lee
- MG Patrick Cleburne
- BG Francis Shoup
- BG St. John Liddell
- BG Tige Anderson
- MG William Mahone
- BG Daniel Govan
- BG Mark P. Lowrey
- MG Thomas Hindman
- Colonel Leon von Zinken
- Colonel James Cooper Nisbet
- Col. George F. Baucum
- Col. Frederick A. Ashford
- Capt. Samuel T. Foster
- MG N. B. Forrest (hard choice; he can go either way; definitely need to do more specific research on the man before i can be certain)

Anti- :
- MG William H. T. Walker
- BG/MG Stephen Ramseur
- BG Henry L. Benning
- BG Clement Stevens
- MG William Bate
- MG Patton Anderson
- MG Braxton Bragg
- MG/LTG Jubal Early

This is what Ive settled on so far. Not sure if i should put J. B. Gordon or Kershaw as Pro- or Anti-. Definitely need more info for those in the AoNV
I like the OoB, very detailed, but I'm not sure what happened to the brigades in Bate's and Walker's divisions, and where did McLaws get his brigades?
 
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I like the OoB, very detailed, but I'm not sure what happened to the brigades in Bate's and Walker's divisions, and where did McLaws get his brigades?
This is not a very realistic thing i made. The numbers i was given were a bit too large, plus i had made a few promotions and resignations due to wounds or misconduct
Assume the campaign in north Ga goes similarly to how it did historically; black troops join by time the army reaches the Chattahoochee.
Bate I had resign in anger over his refusal to use Black troops in his command.
Walker either also resigns or is killed; McLaws is transfered to take command of his still sizable division
Polk is killed; Hardee takes command of III Corps, allowing Cleburne to rise to command I Corps
Hood elevated to Army command at Atlanta; Stewart takes command of II Corps.
First Gist's Brigade was united and part of Maney's (Cheatham's Old) Division; I had at that point disbanded Walker's division; then I realized i had promoted a few too many officers, and his brigade plus the 2 large colored regiments i added mad me think it prudent to split his command, him leading the SC regiments as part of Maney's Division; the Georgians under H. R. Jackson in McLaws's division, which i had reformed.
A bunch of other Brigades i merged to be strengthened; the 2 Mississippi brigades in Hindman's division are merged into one, as are the 2 Alabama brigades;
Stovall's Ga Brigade was disbanded due to only having less than 600 men.
Long story short: this is pretty stupid, and I accept that fact.
 
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This is not a very realistic thing i made. The numbers i was given were a bit too large, plus i had made a few promotions and resignations due to wounds or misconduct
Assume the campaign in north Ga goes similarly to how it did historically; black troops join by time the army reaches the Chattahoochee.
Bate I had resign in anger over his refusal to use Black troops in his command.
Walker either also resigns or is killed; McLaws is transfered to take command of his still sizable division
Polk is killed; Hardee takes command of III Corps, allowing Cleburne to rise to command I Corps
Hood elevated to Army command at Atlanta; Stewart takes command of II Corps.
First Gist's Brigade was united and part of Maney's (Cheatham's Old) Division; I had at that point disbanded Walker's division; then I realized i had promoted a few too many officers, and his brigade plus the 2 large colored regiments i added mad me think it prudent to split his command, him leading the SC regiments as part of Maney's Division; the Georgians under H. R. Jackson in McLaws's division, which i had reformed.
A bunch of other Brigades i merged to be strengthened; the 2 Mississippi brigades in Hindman's division are merged into one, as are the 2 Alabama brigades;
Stovall's Ga Brigade was disbanded due to only having less than 600 men.
Long story short: this is pretty stupid, and I accept that fact.
It isn't stupid at all, you've clearly put thought and effort into this exercise. If you wish, I can PM you some ideas I had for the AoT OoB.
 
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It isn't stupid at all, you've clearly put thought and effort into this exercise. If you wish, I can PM you some ideas I had for the AoT OoB.
Thank you.
Am definitely gonna tweek this for my project (to add in my fictional characters, plus taking into account Johnston's removal in April due to the fallout from the Cobb-Dahlgren Affair, and my other minor details)
 
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Thank you.
Am definitely gonna tweek this for my project (to add in my fictional characters, plus taking into account Johnston's removal in April due to the fallout from the Cobb-Dahlgren Affair, and my other minor details)
You may not have to remove Joe, he was restoring the morale of the army after Missionary Ridge, and had held the respect of his subordinates (most of them probably were just glad to be rid of Bragg). If I had to guess, Davis would probably choose Hardee after Johnston. He isn't perfect, but he had worked with the AoT since the beginning, and was a very good corps commander. From what I understand, he was also friends with Bishop Polk, which might help the army's performance.
 

BlueandGrayl

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So I looked up Luke Freet's alternate Army of Tennessee units and I counted at least 20 Confederate Colored Regiments individually listed from Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, Kentucky (a border state), Florida, Arkansas, Texas, Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi. I'm wondering that if these regiments do well against white Union soldiers and their black counterparts at Atlanta (egardless if they win or not perhaps the Eastern Army of Northern Virginia decides to muster black troops like their Western counterpart the Army of Tennessee.

One thing that you @Luke Freet and @OldReliable1862 need to notice is since this scenario assumes the Confederacy formally adopts Cleburne's proposal and blacks (free or slave) are enlisted into Confederate Army and Navy how do abolitionists such as William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass react to seeing their foe enlist troops of the people they are fighting for? Do they wholeheartedly support the proposal and praise the Confederacy for finally allowing black soldiers or do they become skeptical and see it as a desperate ploy? On top of all that this is also going to send shock waves in the United States especially the Lincoln Administration seeing their enemies use black troops too just like them and makes the Union cause seem a bit redundant and the historical reputation of the Confederacy in a modern 20th-21st century outlook is going to be quite different and Foner and McPherson may very well have a more favorable attitude.
 
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You may not have to remove Joe, he was restoring the morale of the army after Missionary Ridge, and had held the respect of his subordinates (most of them probably were just glad to be rid of Bragg). If I had to guess, Davis would probably choose Hardee after Johnston. He isn't perfect, but he had worked with the AoT since the beginning, and was a very good corps commander. From what I understand, he was also friends with Bishop Polk, which might help the army's performance.
Yes, Johnston did restore morale to the Army, but Davis didn't trust him enough, due to the events on the peninsula and at Jackson. Wigfall was his prime supporter in Richmond, and this barely allowed him to command until his army retreated from the Chattahoochee line to Atlanta. If that supporter went under in a scandal like the Cobb-Dahlgren Affair, that could get Johnston removed from command.
Hardee is the logical choice, i will admit, given his tenure. However, it appears he lacks the finese to command at the Army level. A solid though not a real spectacular corps commander
 
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So I looked up Luke Freet's alternate Army of Tennessee units and I counted at least 20 Confederate Colored Regiments individually listed from Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, Kentucky (a border state), Florida, Arkansas, Texas, Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi.
Most of these men were probably from the South Eastern states. Transferring slaves from, say, Arkansas, is impossible. So, the 1st Arkansas Colored is made up of men from Georgia, Alabama, and the Carolinas. The officers would be from Arkansas units.
 
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BlueandGrayl

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Most of these men were probably from the South Eastern states. Transferring slaves from, say, Arkansas, is impossible. So, the 1st Arkansas Colored is made up of men from Georgia, Alabama, and the Carolinas. The officers would be from Arkansas units.
Well the other part of the question of how will abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass and the United States government and the Lincoln Administration react to seeing the Confederacy enlist slave and free blacks into the army and navy and if these troops do just as well against white Union troops and their black Union counterparts at Atlanta (regardless if they win or not) then perhaps Robert E. Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia will also enlist black troops.
 
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Looking through this, my first impression is, once again, this is very well done. I've also noted that it seems Micah Jenkins and J. E. B. Stuart are still killed, or at least not present. Due to butterfly effect, you may see some commanders who died live, and vice versa. I also noticed Ewell is absent, what is he doing?

You mentioned Hardee becoming commander of Polk's corps, though in your OoB, it seems the corps went to Cheatham.
 
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Looking through this, my first impression is, once again, this is very well done. I've also noted that it seems Micah Jenkins and J. E. B. Stuart are still killed, or at least not present. Due to butterfly effect, you may see some commanders who died live, and vice versa. I also noticed Ewell is absent, what is he doing?

You mentioned Hardee becoming commander of Polk's corps, though in your OoB, it seems the corps went to Cheatham.
1st point: Yes, itd be highly more likely that the butterfly effect saved Jenkins, Polk, and Stuart. And Longstreet might not have been wounded.
However, I'm not sure how much of the military situation would change with the Cleburne Proposal passing, and before the black troops join up with their respective armies in June/July. So, I'll presume that things go about as well as they did for Lee's Army until he reaches Cold Harbor. White troops would be rushed to join Lee; to replace them at Petersburg, several independent brigades are formed from the still drilling regiments to be placed into line. When Lee's Army arrives in Petersburg, many of these brigades are dispered, and the regiments split between white brigades, like G. T. Anderson's, Sander's, etc.
2nd point: I wanted Cleburne to rise to command Hardee's corps, for then he'd still have influence over his own troops, plus the largest concentration of C.S.C.T. regiments. In hindsight, I realize putting him in command over W. H. T. Walker, who'd be miffed that his attempt to undermine Cleburne backfired entirely and now commands the corps, is a recipe for disaster. Maybe he'd be put in command of Hood's Corps, whilest Stewart commands III Corps instead of Hardee, and Hardee retain his corps.
 

BlueandGrayl

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1st point: Yes, itd be highly more likely that the butterfly effect saved Jenkins, Polk, and Stuart. And Longstreet might not have been wounded.
However, I'm not sure how much of the military situation would change with the Cleburne Proposal passing, and before the black troops join up with their respective armies in June/July. So, I'll presume that things go about as well as they did for Lee's Army until he reaches Cold Harbor. White troops would be rushed to join Lee; to replace them at Petersburg, several independent brigades are formed from the still drilling regiments to be placed into line. When Lee's Army arrives in Petersburg, many of these brigades are dispered, and the regiments split between white brigades, like G. T. Anderson's, Sander's, etc.
2nd point: I wanted Cleburne to rise to command Hardee's corps, for then he'd still have influence over his own troops, plus the largest concentration of C.S.C.T. regiments. In hindsight, I realize putting him in command over W. H. T. Walker, who'd be miffed that his attempt to undermine Cleburne backfired entirely and now commands the corps, is a recipe for disaster. Maybe he'd be put in command of Hood's Corps, whilest Stewart commands III Corps instead of Hardee, and Hardee retain his corps.
Well I had already asked the question of how certain people reacted (which you liked my two posts) and what are your thoughts on it.
 



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