Discussion Why no galvanized Confederates?

Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,820
Location
los angeles ca
Unfortunately, most were sent west to fight in the union's indian eradication


Unfortunately, the union sent most west to fight that government’s Indian eradication wars.
Oh please ! Most Indians where not eradicated and has I mentioned in the Native Americans in the Civil war thread with sources the CSA killed plenty of Indians men women and children. The main reason they where sent west was because if they would be captured by the CSA they would be executed. Southerners had no problem killing Indians . yes Indians fought on the CSA has well has for the Union. CSA Indians deserted quite a bit.
Leftyhunter
 

Elennsar

Colonel
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,823
Location
California
Fighting for the United States in that arena is still fighting for the United States, not the armies against the same.

And let's not even try to imply that wanting to wipe out Indians (as far as the issue of the frontier went) was a US thing but not a CS thing, because Colonel John Robert Baylor doesn't have anything to do with this thread's supposed topic.

Lots of jerks here, sufficient to say.
 

ole

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
34,431
Location
Near Kankakee
Oh please ! Most Indians where not eradicated and has I mentioned in the Native Americans in the Civil war thread with sources the CSA killed plenty of Indians men women and children. The main reason they where sent west was because if they would be captured by the CSA they would be executed. Southerners had no problem killing Indians . yes Indians fought on the CSA has well has for the Union. CSA Indians deserted quite a bit.
Leftyhunter
You know that CSA Today has to mention Indian eradication at least once weekly if not more often. Get used to it.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
19,789
Location
Laurinburg NC
Oh please ! Most Indians where not eradicated and has I mentioned in the Native Americans in the Civil war thread with sources the CSA killed plenty of Indians men women and children. The main reason they where sent west was because if they would be captured by the CSA they would be executed. Southerners had no problem killing Indians . yes Indians fought on the CSA has well has for the Union. CSA Indians deserted quite a bit.
Leftyhunter
Yet despite harsher conditions and being a factor of large significance, desertion in the South was less extensive than in the North.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
19,789
Location
Laurinburg NC
You know that CSA Today has to mention Indian eradication at least once weekly if not more often. Get used to it.
It goes well with someone mentioning slavery in every other paragraph and the Confederacy starting a war to protect slavery already protected in the South mantra.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,820
Location
los angeles ca
Yet despite harsher conditions and being a factor of large significance, desertion in the South was less extensive than in the North.
Again we have to do the math. The CSA with a white population of 5.5 million has at least 200k desertion vs The Union with 26 million people had 300k deserters.
Leftyhunter
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

Elennsar

Colonel
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,823
Location
California
I think 200k is too high from my limited study on the subject, so I'd like to see where that's from (It may have been posted previously, in which case just tell me the post).

But I'd definitely like to see why the concept of "1/4th the Confederate army deserted" should be regarded as implausible on the face of it too.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
19,789
Location
Laurinburg NC
Again we have to do the math. The CSA with a white population of 5.5 million has at least 200k desertion vs The Union with 26 million people had 300k deserters.
Leftyhunter
According to J.G. Randall and David Donald, The Civil War and Reconstruction (footnote page.330) the desertion rate among Federal troops were 4,647 a month in 1863 and 7,333 monthly in 1864. In 1864, 7,333 men would have been the equivalent of one large division or two small divisions. If the Confederate States, with its much smaller population, had lost that many men monthly in 1864 it could never have lasted until April 1865 even with it much smaller but superior army.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,820
Location
los angeles ca
According to J.G. Randall and David Donald, The Civil War and Reconstruction (footnote page.330) the desertion rate among Federal troops were 4,647 a month in 1863 and 7,333 monthly in 1864. In 1864, 7,333 men would have been the equivalent of one large division or two small divisions. If the Confederate States, with its much smaller population, had lost that many men monthly in 1864 it could never have lasted until April 1865 even with it much smaller but superior army.
I will have to find a quote for the 200k vs 300k figure. Essential Civil war Curriculum Deserters Cowardice and Punishment Dr.Mark Weitz there where approx 103k deserters vs 200 to 280 k Union deserters again the South had a smaller army approx 600 k to 1.3 mil vs approx 2 mil for the Union. I have quoted before that by late 1864 Davis admitted 2/3's of the CSA was AWOl. Also this thread is about galvanized Confederates not desertion you can bring up the previous threads.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,820
Location
los angeles ca
According to J.G. Randall and David Donald, The Civil War and Reconstruction (footnote page.330) the desertion rate among Federal troops were 4,647 a month in 1863 and 7,333 monthly in 1864. In 1864, 7,333 men would have been the equivalent of one large division or two small divisions. If the Confederate States, with its much smaller population, had lost that many men monthly in 1864 it could never have lasted until April 1865 even with it much smaller but superior army.
Found it . If you want to debate CSA desertion go to the politics forum I just brought up that thread.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,820
Location
los angeles ca
I think 200k is too high from my limited study on the subject, so I'd like to see where that's from (It may have been posted previously, in which case just tell me the post).

But I'd definitely like to see why the concept of "1/4th the Confederate army deserted" should be regarded as implausible on the face of it too.
Hi Elennsar,
Check out post#23 in Derters in the Confederacy in the politics forum. I brought it back because I think its more appropriate.
Leftyhunter.
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

Elennsar

Colonel
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,823
Location
California
Hi Elennsar,
Check out post#23 in Derters in the Confederacy in the politics forum. I brought it back because I think its more appropriate.
Leftyhunter.
Will do.

So to comment on the Galvanization question: Not sure if they'd count as galvanized as such, but I wonder if any of the men from the Marylanders who refused to move when their unit did (say, Company K of the 1st Eastern Shore) later enlisted in gray after being discharged. They don't seem to have been at all pro-secession.
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,820
Location
los angeles ca
Will do.

So to comment on the Galvanization question: Not sure if they'd count as galvanized as such, but I wonder if any of the men from the Marylanders who refused to move when their unit did (say, Company K of the 1st Eastern Shore) later enlisted in gray after being discharged. They don't seem to have been at all pro-secession.
Hi Elennsar,
Per Encylopedia of Virginia .org desertion Lee estimated one third of the AnV did not fight in Md. The term galvanized refers to one side recruiting POWs to fight in their army vs being locked up or exchanged. Both sides in the CW did so arguably the Union had more sucess.
Leftyhunter
 

Elennsar

Colonel
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,823
Location
California
Yeah. Of course, Lee was talking largely of straggling, not long term desertion, I think. But its probably hard to tell when men AWOL should be counted as "permanently or nearly so out of the ranks".
 
Fewer ads. Lots of American Civil War content!
JOIN NOW: REGISTER HERE!

ole

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Messages
34,431
Location
Near Kankakee
It goes well with someone mentioning slavery in every other paragraph and the Confederacy starting a war to protect slavery already protected in the South mantra.
It does not "go well." It is a deflection always brought up when you are pressed for a cogent response. It is a "yah, but" response with no value.
 

leftyhunter

Colonel
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
16,820
Location
los angeles ca
The Union recruited volunteers from Confederates held at Prisoner of War camps. With the man power shortages the Confederacy suffered from, was there any movement to recruit Confederate volunteers from Union prisoners they held?
Hi Major,
I was reading a great book "Junius and Alberts adventures in the Confederacy a Civil War oddyssy by Peter Carlos Publicaffairs.com. the book is the story of two NY Tribune reporters captured by the CSA and imprisoned until they escaped. They where given parole papers but the the CSA hated the tribune and would not honor their parole so they had to bribe their way out.
The last prison they where at was Salisbury Prison in Nc. By late 1864 their was approx 9,500 poorly fed Union prisoners many dying due to poor sanitation plus meager rations and lack of shelter. Per p.135 between Oct 1864 to Feb 1865 1,500 prisoners did join the CSA . Often an Irish priest would make appeals to Irish prisoners. The CSA would offer a $100 bonus plus $20 a month and food and new uniforms. Of course it was Confederate money. Towards the end of the war they would offer two bushels of sweet potatoes. The Military History Now website has an article"meet the galvanized Yankees" which makes the same point Richard Current makes that most galvanized Confederates would desert has soon has they could.
Leftyhunter
 
Top