Restricted Debate Why Must a Civil War History Month be replaced with Another?

4th-MSM

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@Union League

New thread for a discussion that began in the Southern Unionist History Month Thread:

Original Question:

Union League said:
Wonder if someone could start a movement to replace Confederate History month with Southern Unionists History month ?
4TH-MSM said:
Serious question (not trying to derail the thread), why must one be replaced with the other? I'm not going to prevent someone from celebrating a Southern Unionist History Month (even though I've never heard of it before now), but I would appreciate the same courtesy if I chose to respect the memory of those who served honorably for the South during a month set aside for it (I do the same for those who served honorably for the North as well).
Replies:

Union League said:
Why would you celebrate the enemies of your country for even a month ? Presuming you are a citizen of the United States.
4TH-MSM said:
I see I'm not going to get a direct answer. As I said, my intent is not to derail the thread (I've been down those rabbit trails before), it was a serious question. But, yes, for the record I am a citizen of the U.S. and am thankful to be one.
Union League said:
Fact is, the times they are a changin'. The old agreement between north and south "aryans" that Foote talked about, that the south would except the outcome and the north respect the Souths bravery (the agreement I grew up with) is over, POC are in the conversation now and many of them want no honoring of the enemy.
I still wonder why anyone would want to celebrate the enemies of their country...
 

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gem

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There are some people who would prefer to bury Confederate history, for similar reasons as to why Lincoln did not honor the Confederate dead.
 

4th-MSM

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Union League said:
Fact is, the times they are a changin'. The old agreement between north and south "aryans" that Foote talked about, that the south would except the outcome and the north respect the Souths bravery (the agreement I grew up with) is over, POC are in the conversation now and many of them want no honoring of the enemy.
I still wonder why anyone would want to celebrate the enemies of their country...
So, basically what you're saying is that a respectful compromise between the two sides and their viewpoints are now obsolete, each individual must fall in line with the current viewpoint or leave? I still don't see the reason why to have one, other history month(s) must be removed. Seems like multiple historical viewpoints would benefit the balance of historical study. Further clarification would be appreciated.

I will be glad to answer your question once the original question is resolved. But for right now, I'd rather not get off topic on a thread that was created because of a discussion that was off topic from the original topic. :D
 
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4th-MSM

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There are some people who would prefer to bury Confederate history, for similar reasons as to why Lincoln did not honor the Confederate dead.
But there are also some people who prefer that Confederate history is not lost, in many cases because they have ancestors who served in the southern ranks and/or because it was a large part of U.S. history (and local history) as well. The question is, who gets to decide whose opinion matters more? Which goes back to, why must one viewpoint (in this case history month) be removed to allow another to exist? Does historical study not benefit from multiple viewpoints?
 

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#6
For some folks, the idea of the 1st amendment doesn't apply to folks they disagree with. On the contrary, the 1st amendment wasn't written so everyone could be an echo chamber. It is MOST important for folks with views differing from your own.

Some of the same folks LOVE freedom of expression, speech, religion, etc. when it fits their agenda/ideology, yet want to silence other opinions, views, ideologies. This isn't happening just to Confederate stuff. Look at the nonsense happening at plenty of major colleges, & universities across the country. The very places that used to be the beacons of free expression, are now shutting it down.

I continue to believe, it's not really about Confederate anything. It's about political ideology. The average person on the street, especially in urban areas, couldn't tell you much about the period most of us are obsessed with. Yet, once on a checklist of things to be triggered about, from their ideological talking points..... boom.
 

4th-MSM

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For some folks, the idea of the 1st amendment doesn't apply to folks they disagree with. On the contrary, the 1st amendment wasn't written so everyone could be an echo chamber. It is MOST important for folks with views differing from your own.

Some of the same folks LOVE freedom of expression, speech, religion, etc. when it fits their agenda/ideology, yet want to silence other opinions, views, ideologies. This isn't happening just to Confederate stuff. Look at the nonsense happening at plenty of major colleges, & universities across the country. The very places that used to be the beacons of free expression, are now shutting it down.

I continue to believe, it's not really about Confederate anything. It's about political ideology. The average person on the street, especially in urban areas, couldn't tell you much about the period most of us are obsessed with. Yet, once on a checklist of things to be triggered about, from their ideological talking points..... boom.
Exactly, excellent post!
 

GwilymT

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For some folks, the idea of the 1st amendment doesn't apply to folks they disagree with. On the contrary, the 1st amendment wasn't written so everyone could be an echo chamber. It is MOST important for folks with views differing from your own.

Some of the same folks LOVE freedom of expression, speech, religion, etc. when it fits their agenda/ideology, yet want to silence other opinions, views, ideologies. This isn't happening just to Confederate stuff. Look at the nonsense happening at plenty of major colleges, & universities across the country. The very places that used to be the beacons of free expression, are now shutting it down.

I continue to believe, it's not really about Confederate anything. It's about political ideology. The average person on the street, especially in urban areas, couldn't tell you much about the period most of us are obsessed with. Yet, once on a checklist of things to be triggered about, from their ideological talking points..... boom.
Could you clarify what you mean by “especially in urban areas”? What does living in an urban area or a rural area have to do with one’s interest in or knowledge of history? If anything, given that there are higher education rates in urban areas than rural areas, one could logically assume that the opposite of your “urban areas” claim is true.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/rural-economy-population/employment-education/rural-education/
 

Cavalry Charger

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Lincoln did not honor the Confederate dead.
One of the great shames to come out of the CW, in my opinion, was the lack of support around the reburial of Confederate dead.

Vanquishing your enemy is one thing. Disrespecting their remains is another. And I'm not sure how this one comes back on Lincoln since he was assassinated only days after the end of the CW. The Confederacy accepted defeat. That doesn't mean they didn't fight valiantly. And they were Americans by birth and ultimately in death. Why would you not want to honour their memory? Because the ideal of independence cherished upon the founding of the country was so ingrained in them that they believed in the right to oppose a Government they didn't agree with? The basis for the disagreement has become the issue, but the independent nature of their thinking was no different to what it had been when the country was founded. This is where I see things getting tied up in knots sometimes.
 
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Viper21

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Could you clarify what you mean by “especially in urban areas”? What does living in an urban area or a rural area have to do with one’s interest in or knowledge of history? If anything, given that there are higher education rates in urban areas than rural areas, one could logically assume that the opposite of your “urban areas” claim is true.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/rural-economy-population/employment-education/rural-education/
Assume as you wish.

Walk into your local foo foo coffee shop downtown big city USA, & ask folks who Thomas J. Jackson was. I bet the overwhelming majority don't know. Ask em who George Pickett was. Ask em who Philip Sheridan was. Again, I bet most couldn't tell you. Plenty couldn't tell you who William T. Sherman is either.

Pull into the local gas station where I live. Ask the same questions. I would bet every dollar in my pocket, a higher percentage of correct answers will come to you. Even if you don't ask the old timers loitering around.

My point was simply, differing ideology exists in general between urban, & rural areas. I'm painting with a broad brush here but, I'm sure you get the point. You'll find many more triggered types in urban areas, than out in the boonies where I live.
 

GwilymT

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One of the great shames to come out of the CW, in my opinion, was the lack of support around the reburial of Confederate dead.

Vanquishing your enemy is one thing. Disrespecting their remains is another. And I'm not sure how this one comes back on Lincoln since he was assassinated only days after the end of the CW. The Confederacy accepted defeat. That doesn't mean they didn't fight valiantly. And they were Americans by birth and ultimately in death. Why would you not want to honour their memory? Because the ideal of independence cherished upon the founding of the country was so ingrained in them that they believed in the right to oppose a Government they didn't agree with? The basis for the disagreement has become the issue, but the independent nature of their thinking was no different to what it had been when the country was founded. This is where I see things getting tied up in knots sometimes.
No one is questioning that Confederates fought valiantly. Confederates were citizens of the United States by birth “Americans”, but not in death. They repudiated that honor. We should honor these people for their devotion, their courage, and their ability. We should not confuse this with some sort of American sacrifice for the good of our United States, it was quite the opposite.

To the OP, when there is an official observance of something, it becomes a statement of the government. The government of the people, the whole people. Should the government of the United States recognize those who made war against them? Should the People of Color, now citizens thanks to the civil war, revere the confederate cause?

Anyone anywhere can celebrate any cause they want. Once it becomes official, you are making me celebrate and also those who have good reason to hate the confederacy.
 

4th-MSM

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Some of the above posts give me a good opportunity to go ahead and answer the question "Why would you celebrate the enemies of your country for even a month?". The following is just my opinion, and I am only posting it as such.

My simple, direct answer would be, because I just don't see them as enemies of my Country. They were Americans before the war and they (and their descendants) were Americans after the war. I view it more in the nature of a family disagreement (on a much larger, more devastating scale of course) than as outright enemies.

There were terrible acts committed under the name of the Confederacy and there were terrible acts committed under the name of the Union. My own family was not immune from such acts by either side. There were also acts of compassion done under the Confederacy as well as the Union name.

Here in Missouri, there were actual neighbors going off to war together, except one was going to fight for the North while the other was going to fight for the South. Members of the same family shooting one another outside their homes because they disagreed on which side was right. People strung up or shot for nothing more than an accusation of sympathizing with the wrong side (wrong side being subjective to who was doing the hanging). Women and children forced to look on as their farms and all that the family had worked for was torched to the ground. Such events are only a small sample.

Yet in all of that, there were still acts of compassion and respect. Such as the woman who, after killing an escaped Confederate POW while he was trying to wrestle away a pistol from her husband's hand (a Union scout on leave), then nearly having her home burnt to the ground the next day, would go out every year after the war on Decoration Day and place flowers on the same Confederate POWs grave. A grave she and her children dug themselves in the woods behind the house.

North and South, there are some individuals I truly respect, some I completely dislike, and some I can understand why they did what they did, but still disagree with it. I base this on their actions, not their uniform.

My point is, these were countrymen, neighbors, friends, even family fighting amongst themselves for differing beliefs. Which is why I do not see either side as the enemy, and why I said I respect those who served honorably for both the North and the South.
 

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Assume as you wish.

Walk into your local foo foo coffee shop downtown big city USA, & ask folks who Thomas J. Jackson was. I bet the overwhelming majority don't know. Ask em who George Pickett was. Ask em who Philip Sheridan was. Again, I bet most couldn't tell you. Plenty couldn't tell you who William T. Sherman is either.

Pull into the local gas station where I live. Ask the same questions. I would bet every dollar in my pocket, a higher percentage of correct answers will come to you. Even if you don't ask the old timers loitering around.

My point was simply, differing ideology exists in general between urban, & rural areas. I'm painting with a broad brush here but, I'm sure you get the point. You'll find many more triggered types in urban areas, than out in the boonies where I live.
Thank you for clarifying. You assume that people in urban areas, who on average are more highly educated than those in rural areas somehow know less about US history than their less educated rural counterparts and have no evidence other than some made up “foo foo” coffee shop assertion to back up your claim. In my experience, those in urban areas, with their higher rates of education, are less susceptible to “lost cause” white washing of Civil War history. They understand the the self professed reason and purpose of the Confederacy was the protection and expansion of slavery. I think this triggers many confederate apologists.
 

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No one is questioning that Confederates fought valiantly. Confederates were citizens of the United States by birth “Americans”, but not in death. They repudiated that honor. We should honor these people for their devotion, their courage, and their ability. We should not confuse this with some sort of American sacrifice for the good of our United States, it was quite the opposite.

To the OP, when there is an official observance of something, it becomes a statement of the government. The government of the people, the whole people. Should the government of the United States recognize those who made war against them? Should the People of Color, now citizens thanks to the civil war, revere the confederate cause?

Anyone anywhere can celebrate any cause they want. Once it becomes official, you are making me celebrate and also those who have good reason to hate the confederacy.
I think where the waters become muddy here (and they are muddy in my opinion) is with the drawing of a line that separates those who fought and died for the Confederacy from their offspring and descendants, the majority of whom continue/d to be faithful Americans, even fighting for their country. If we are talking about a history month, then we're not talking about 'revering' anyone. Yes, it's an acknowledgement, as much for those who live as descendants now as those who died in its cause. Why should their history not be acknowledged as part of the overall American experience? Is it an honoring? In my opinion it's a recognition. It is all part of the history of the country, and an integral part of what led to the United States becoming the country that it is today.

I understand the point you are trying to make. I just don't agree with it.
 
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Thank you for clarifying. You assume that people in urban areas, who on average are more highly educated than those in rural areas somehow know less about US history than their less educated rural counterparts and have no evidence other than some made up “foo foo” coffee shop assertion to back up your claim. In my experience, those in urban areas, with their higher rates of education, are less susceptible to “lost cause” white washing of Civil War history. They understand the the self professed reason and purpose of the Confederacy was the protection and expansion of slavery. I think this triggers many confederate apologists.
From my experience the modern, city folk, in fact most of America in general know little of the civil war and buy into whatever the current politically correct view of the day is. I say this growing up in a rural area, yet working in the city with folks from all over the world that have high level degrees, PE's, CPM's, etc. Most people just have little interest in it.
 

4th-MSM

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No one is questioning that Confederates fought valiantly. Confederates were citizens of the United States by birth “Americans”, but not in death. They repudiated that honor. We should honor these people for their devotion, their courage, and their ability. We should not confuse this with some sort of American sacrifice for the good of our United States, it was quite the opposite.

To the OP, when there is an official observance of something, it becomes a statement of the government. The government of the people, the whole people. Should the government of the United States recognize those who made war against them? Should the People of Color, now citizens thanks to the civil war, revere the confederate cause?

Anyone anywhere can celebrate any cause they want. Once it becomes official, you are making me celebrate and also those who have good reason to hate the confederacy.
While I wouldn't exactly use the term 'revere', it would be their choice, I never suggested they had to, nor am I specifiying any one group of citizens. I'm referring to all individuals alike, though to remain on topic I am referring only to Civil War related history months.

I don't see how a history month can force someone to celebrate it by just existing, if they choose not to. But just to clarify, I am speaking of history months regardless to whether they are officially recognized or not. Neither history month in the OP is recognized by the Federal government.

Which, again, brings back my point. Why can't multiple history months coexist and let each individual choose which to celebrate and which to ignore?
 
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Assume as you wish.

Walk into your local foo foo coffee shop downtown big city USA, & ask folks who Thomas J. Jackson was. I bet the overwhelming majority don't know. Ask em who George Pickett was. Ask em who Philip Sheridan was. Again, I bet most couldn't tell you. Plenty couldn't tell you who William T. Sherman is either.

Pull into the local gas station where I live. Ask the same questions. I would bet every dollar in my pocket, a higher percentage of correct answers will come to you. Even if you don't ask the old timers loitering around.

My point was simply, differing ideology exists in general between urban, & rural areas. I'm painting with a broad brush here but, I'm sure you get the point. You'll find many more triggered types in urban areas, than out in the boonies where I live.
My father lives in rural, upstate New York. I would bet few of them know the figures you mention.

My observation, the Civil War is not as big a thing in the North and West as it is in the South, for a number of reasons.

- Alan
 

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