Why do present-day Southerners have such passion for the 'Lost Cause?'

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larry_cockerham

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It's in our veins and our culture. We are descended from the men who fought, we heard the stories from our grandparents and great-grandparents about fighting the war, and the effects after the war. Many families have great-granddaddy's rifle, pistol, or sword he used in the war. My confederate heritage is as much a part of me as my german heritage. And throughout the south are memorials to the men and women who served. Not to mention all the battlefields. When I was in the 8th grade, during a study of NC history there was a long section about Wilmington's role in the war, and a field trip to Fort Fisher. The effects of the war reach into my childhood. A report had come out in the 1960s about the poor conditions of schools in the south, how they lagged behind the north. I remember the discussions of how the south had to rebuild it's economy because of the devastation of the war and reconstruction, and it really didn't start going good until WWII. Even the naming of Fort Bragg after Braxton Bragg set off a controversy.

I've been to the UDC's national conventions, we have chapters in every state. The ladies from the northern chapters may have confederate ancestors, but they're still yankees. They may talk about the "lost cause" but it's something they learned about, not something they were born with.

Curious if you have links to the Order of the Confederate Rose?
 

larry_cockerham

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No, I don't. I'm sure if you googled it you would be able to find it.
Actually I was interested if you were a member since I saw your reference to the UDC. The OCR is affiliated with the SCV. I can't pass the physical.
 
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catspjamas

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Yes, I'm very much aware of the OCR. The UDC doesn't look fondly upon the OCR. Many ladies who qualify to be UDC members don't join because they don't want to do the work to prove their confederate lineage. The OCR has no such requirement. It's a shame, really, because there are so many women in the UDC that are willing to help them. And if lineage can not be proven, ladies can still be associate members.
 

larry_cockerham

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It's been suggested to me that there's more to the issue than that. As you know, if you're southern for any time at all, even a blind man (lady) could find a Confederate ancestor, particularly through such silly rules as the SCV's deal about blood lines where I could join through my great uncle because I'm a blood descendant of his father, even though my own link to that father could have been a yankee, non combatant, gay or have had green eyes. Heritage should be heritage, period; but that's beside the point. Back to the ladies. Most OCR members I know have a firm grasp on their history and are very active in that pursuit. There does seem to be a rub with UDC attitudes and a perceived or otherwise difference in age, attitudes and perhaps social or economic status? I don't have a dog in the fight, just curious. Seems to me the future of any organization, in particular the SCV and SUVCW depends on drawing new and younger members into the circle. My wife, for example, has two very well-documented Confederate gg grandfathers and I still can't get her interested.
 

catspjamas

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Sure you can find a confederate ancestor, but can you find proof of birth, marriage, and death of each set of parents between you and that ancestor? That's where the difficulty lies. And no, the UDC is not going to change that requirement.

Yes, the UDC is having to overcome its past image as a society organization, where a woman had to be invited to join, and if she wasn't from the right people, she didn't get invited. And some chapters are aging out. But others are growing and the membership is a good blend of younger and older, and different economic status. I'm unemployed and my best friend in my chapter drives a Jag.

All I know, is when I ask OCR members if they would be interested in joining the UDC, they state the difficulty of having to prove their ancestor as a reason not to join.
 
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Baggage Handler #2

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Reading this thread reminds me of something I once heard from a longtime student of civilization (I think it was a former military officer now sometimes professor and lecturer at the E.U. in Brussels, but I could have that all wrong).

90% of the wars and racial/regional hatreds would disappear if every other generation had to move 300 miles in a random direction.
 

larry_cockerham

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Sure you can find a confederate ancestor, but can you find proof of birth, marriage, and death of each set of parents between you and that ancestor? That's where the difficulty lies. And no, the UDC is not going to change that requirement.

Yes, the UDC is having to overcome its past image as a society organization, where a woman had to be invited to join, and if she wasn't from the right people, she didn't get invited. And some chapters are aging out. But others are growing and the membership is a good blend of younger and older, and different economic status. I'm unemployed and my best friend in my chapter drives a Jag.

All I know, is when I ask OCR members if they would be interested in joining the UDC, they state the difficulty of having to prove their ancestor as a reason not to join.
At my age we're only talking gg grandparents. That's a possibility of eight males in my case. Of those eight, of course I know the identities of all of them and their marriages plus most if not all the kids. Of the eight one simply wasn't old enough and another has no record of serving at all. He was from Mt. City, so I suspect he had some sort of US contract, probably for wagons. Of the other six 3 were Union. That leaves me with three Confederates and I'm a nobody. One of those is questionable. His name was Sam Jones and there were a bunch of them indistinguisable. I have another Confederate, but he became a US soldier in 1864, so he flunked the entrance exam for the SCV. He was my favorite, served two long years with the 48th Virginia than went to the 3rd North Carolina Infantry - honorable discharge at war's end. Any self respecting lady with half an interest in genealogy ought to be able to do at least half that?
 

OpnDownfall

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Why do present-day Southerners have such passion for the 'Lost Cause'?

Willingness to 'forgive and forget' usually comes easier to the victor than the loser of wars. The loser usually lives longer with the effects of defeat, than the winner with victory. Defeat is harder to rationalize, than victory(an acceptable mythos takes longer to create and emplace).
But, the main reason for the 'passion' for the 'Lost Cause' is that, without the mythos of the lost cause, they would be reduced to celebrating the courage and sacrifices of southernerners in an ignoble cause.
 
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Freddy

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I think I can understand why a descendant of any Civil War soldier may be proud of an ancestor's service to one's country and courage displayed on the battlefield.

My ancestor left us with his diary, gun, and equipment from the war. However, most of his descendants are not as knowledgeable of him or interested in him as I am.
 

TxSouthpaw

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Willingness to 'forgive and forget' usually comes easier to the victor than the loser of wars. The loser usually lives longer with the effects of defeat, than the winner with victory. Defeat is harder to rationalize, than victory(an acceptable mythos takes longer to create and emplace).
But, the main reason for the 'passion' for the 'Lost Cause' is that, without the mythos of the lost cause, they would be reduced to celebrating the courage and sacrifices of southernerners in an ignoble cause.
Along that vein, does Germany after WWII have a similar movement? (NOT comparing anyone to Nazis, just the first country that lost that popped into my head.)

Thinking about it further, maybe Germany had such a movement after WWI.
 

cash

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Along that vein, does Germany after WWII have a similar movement? (NOT comparing anyone to Nazis, just the first country that lost that popped into my head.)

Thinking about it further, maybe Germany had such a movement after WWI.
Only comparing the two in terms of populations that lost a war, Germany did have the same type of movement after WW1. They outlawed such a movement following WW2. Even today, as I understand it, it is illegal to openly display Nazi flags and regalia in Germany.

Regards,
Cash
 
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catspjamas

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At my age we're only talking gg grandparents. That's a possibility of eight males in my case. Of those eight, of course I know the identities of all of them and their marriages plus most if not all the kids. Of the eight one simply wasn't old enough and another has no record of serving at all. He was from Mt. City, so I suspect he had some sort of US contract, probably for wagons. Of the other six 3 were Union. That leaves me with three Confederates and I'm a nobody. One of those is questionable. His name was Sam Jones and there were a bunch of them indistinguisable. I have another Confederate, but he became a US soldier in 1864, so he flunked the entrance exam for the SCV. He was my favorite, served two long years with the 48th Virginia than went to the 3rd North Carolina Infantry - honorable discharge at war's end. Any self respecting lady with half an interest in genealogy ought to be able to do at least half that?
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. It's not just knowing the names, and dates. You have to obtain a birth certificate, a marriage license, and a death certificate for each individual, and the military record of your confederate ancestor (all in triplicate) If they were born, married, & died before vital records were being kept you have to find other sources. Census records, wills, family bibles, pictures of headstones, etc. Death certificates and headstones can be used for birth and death only if the complete date is there, month, day, year. If it isn't you have to find another record. And they don't accept a headstone inscription of military service as proof. It has to be an official record. I just got my great-grandfather's from the National Archives, $25. But it's nice to have, includes everything from the day he enlisted to the day he was paroled at Appomattox.

So there's a lot of genealogy work involved in joining the UDC. Which many women aren't interested in doing, as it can take months to find and obtain the proofs.
 

OpnDownfall

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Why do present day Southerners have such passion for the 'Lost Cause'?

I understand that there is a subcultural belief in Germany(but not exclusive to Germany) that the mass genocide of Jews, slavs, Gypsies etc., in Germany during ww II is a myth, or, at least, the numbers actually killed being greatly exaggerated.
 

catspjamas

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Only comparing the two in terms of populations that lost a war, Germany did have the same type of movement after WW1. They outlawed such a movement following WW2. Even today, as I understand it, it is illegal to openly display Nazi flags and regalia in Germany.

Regards,
Cash
Did Germany outlaw it, or did the allied forces in command of Germany outlaw it? I wonder what german school children are taught about WWI the rise of Hitler, and WWII. I know what I was taught, zip, nada, zilch. My contemporary american history teacher said WWII wasn't contemporary. This was in 1976 or so.
 
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ole

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So there's a lot of genealogy work involved in joining the UDC. Which many women aren't interested in doing, as it can take months to find and obtain the proofs.
I've heard that the Union counterpart of the UDC is equally difficult to get into. What's with the ladies? The SCV and the SUVCW aren't anywhere as persnickety.
Did Germany outlaw it, or did the allied forces in command of Germany outlaw it? I wonder what german school children are taught about WWI the rise of Hitler, and WWII.
Being very far from knowledgeable about the subject, but I understand there was some encouragement involved in Germany's decision to disallow Nazi symbolism. And yet, one must acknowledge that they don't want to be reminded.

Ole
 

catspjamas

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I've heard that the Union counterpart of the UDC is equally difficult to get into. What's with the ladies? The SCV and the SUVCW aren't anywhere as persnickety.

Ole
Don't know why the women made it so difficult. The membership requirement states blood descendant, so if you're adopted can't join unless you can prove your biological line. The Union ladies are even stricter in that they only allow direct descendants. The UDC does allow collateral relations. And let me tell you, if a prospective member states "the SCV..." a member will interrupt and say "We don't care how the SCV does it".
 
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Naim Peress

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A very intelligent question. I would like an answer to that question too. That was a good quote from Santayana. I only know the one about reliving the past.
 

cash

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Did Germany outlaw it, or did the allied forces in command of Germany outlaw it?
Germany outlawed it, and it remains outlawed to this day as I understand it.

I wonder what german school children are taught about WWI the rise of Hitler, and WWII. I know what I was taught, zip, nada, zilch. My contemporary american history teacher said WWII wasn't contemporary. This was in 1976 or so.
http://centres.exeter.ac.uk/historyresource/journal6/Barbararev.pdf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/01/books.germany

Regards,
Cash
 
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