Counterpoint Why did The Uncontrolled Growth Of Sectionalism During the 1850s Happen; Slavery or Something More Subtle?


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unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Thank you for your continued responses as I have attempted to find those answers. I think I can now live with what it was and deal with what we are left with because of it.
@BigTex ,

In attempting "to find those answers" I think you will become more pleased at "what we are left with" because of the Civil War.

Our nation is rather unique among the nations of the world. In spite of it's many mistakes and missteps, it keeps trying to be better than it is. During my time in the US Army, I traveled overseas a lot and was stationed in many nations for long periods of time. I was first stationed in Turkey, which was under military rule when I first got there. The first thing I saw when I got off the plane in Istanbul, was an old style Tommy Gun, held by a Turkish Army soldier. I saw armored cars and tanks at city intersections and garrisons of Turkish soldiers and armed sailors at important installations. My very first military ruled nation.

I've been to various other countries, Japan, Germany, England, etc., and been to Mexico. The one vivid memory I have, the one that has always stuck with me, is the feeling of intense happiness and joy whenever I returned to the United States.

There is no other nation like it on the face of the earth and I thank God that I was born here and am one of it's citizens

Good luck finding your answers. I found mine when I was 18 years old with the Army.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
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unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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That is for those defending their homeland to decide not the aggressors.
Too thin an excuse with no details on why defending the homeland is worth dying for. It's an excuse used by political elites to get their citizens to die for a cause that even dogs shouldn't die for.

Like the man once said, "My country, right or wrong, makes about as much sense as My Mother, drunk or sober."
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Too thin an excuse with no details on why defending the homeland is worth dying for. It's an excuse used by political elites to get their citizens to die for a cause that even dogs shouldn't die for.

Like the man once said, "My country, right or wrong, makes about as much sense as My Mother, drunk or sober."
The Yankee nation has always considered it their prerogative to decide who was right and who was wrong.
 

uaskme

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Southerners wanted Independence. Old Abe said it would take100 yeas for Slavery to melt away. Republicans had no reason to disturb Slavery, where it was. Vast majority of Northerners had no feeling for the Negro. What did the Yankee Planters around Natchez think?

The Natchez elite probably took little part in the game. They owned better table stakes and preferred to be dealt into the action available at Union headquarters. Lorenzo Thomas, the adjutant general of the U. S. Army, received their best hospitality. He had become acquainted with them while stationed there before the war, and his return to Natchez in 1863 to recruit black troops scarcely lessened his welcome among the old elite. Thomas was happy "to see his old friends and talk of days gone by." he was also very obliging. He released William J. Minor's plantation from government leasing and announced his readiness to do anything he could "to help out his old friends." presumably this meant opening doors at the Quartermaster's Department and cutting red tape, as he had done for his son and his friends, who had first crack at the most eligibly located plantations that the Natchez elite could offer. Thomas W. Knox was not the only northern prospector who was disappointed to find "that the best plantations in the vicinity had been taken by the friends of Adjutant-General Thomas, and were gone past out securing."

Meanwhile Thomas worked assiduously to see that the regulations concerning the management of the freedmen did not assume a shape that would unduly inconvenience the old elite. He had sold himself on the idea that the system of free labor should should approximate as nearly as possible the usages of slavery, since the latter represented "the results of experience"; and he later recommended scrapping the Freedmen's Bureau. The general was as steadfast and loyal a friend as the Natchez elite could have hoped for in these turbulent times. pp47-47 New Masters by Lawrence N. Powell

Seems as though the 21st Century Yankees views are different than the Majority of the 19th Century Yankees. Anyhow, Yankees are going to drop the Negro and go west to Murder Indians. All for the benefit of the White Man. We, The People, I mean White People. Reality vs Hoping how it should of been. Entertaining
 

ForeverFree

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Too thin an excuse with no details on why defending the homeland is worth dying for. It's an excuse used by political elites to get their citizens to die for a cause that even dogs shouldn't die for.

Like the man once said, "My country, right or wrong, makes about as much sense as My Mother, drunk or sober."
{Off-topic}

RE: Like the man once said, "My country, right or wrong, makes about as much sense as My Mother, drunk or sober."

That is a meme-ready phrase if ever I heard one.

{/Off-topic}
 

OpnCoronet

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ink e from The Impending Crisis, by David Potter
The Summery is that just like nesting Russian dolls, there is often something deeper than hitting Southerners over the head with 'slavery' and retreating into a self satisficing session with Treasury Virtueure. Economic clashes over modes of production and labor is another. Or perhaps a clash of civilizations which is common in historical scholarship.



Uncontrolled Sectionalism? I am not sure what phrase is in reference to

The Sectionalism of ante-bellum American history, is speciifiic and had a single cause, i.e., to control sectionalism, Slavery first had to be controlled(keping the institution of Slavery out of territory, where it did not already exist)

The Sectionalism that led to Secession and War, was speciific to the Compromise of 1820 and, concerned the expansion of Slavery almost exclusively.

Technically(and very narrowly)I suppose, it can be argued that arguing about the expansion of slavery was not precisely, the same as arguing over Slavery itself. As for me I usually find it difficult to argue between te virtues of a nit or a louse.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Southerners wanted Independence.

The growth of Sectionalism during the 1850s can be found in the issue of Slavery. The only independence sought by slaveholders was the independence to put slavery everywhere, in the federal territories, both Slave and Free States. Southerners did not just want independence, they wanted absolute say so over the rest of the nation when it came to slavery.

Old Abe said it would take100 yeas for Slavery to melt away. Republicans had no reason to disturb Slavery, where it was. Vast majority of Northerners had no feeling for the Negro. What did the Yankee Planters around Natchez think?

Now tell the rest of the story. How the slaveholding elite and leadership trumped up a fear of slaves being freed by Northern abolishionists and the Republican Party, when the Republicans said they had no intention of disturbing Southern slavery where it existed. Tell ALL of the story.

The Natchez elite probably took little part in the game. They owned better table stakes and preferred to be dealt into the action available at Union headquarters. Lorenzo Thomas, the adjutant general of the U. S. Army, received their best hospitality. He had become acquainted with them while stationed there before the war, and his return to Natchez in 1863 to recruit black troops scarcely lessened his welcome among the old elite. Thomas was happy "to see his old friends and talk of days gone by." he was also very obliging. He released William J. Minor's plantation from government leasing and announced his readiness to do anything he could "to help out his old friends." presumably this meant opening doors at the Quartermaster's Department and cutting red tape, as he had done for his son and his friends, who had first crack at the most eligibly located plantations that the Natchez elite could offer. Thomas W. Knox was not the only northern prospector who was disappointed to find "that the best plantations in the vicinity had been taken by the friends of Adjutant-General Thomas, and were gone past out securing."

And here too, the one side of the story. How many of these above named men warned the Southern slaveholding States that the minute they rebelled, slavery was doomed in the United States. It had remained undisturbed for all the time previous to secession and then was exposed to destruction by the South's very act of rebellion.

Meanwhile Thomas worked assiduously to see that the regulations concerning the management of the freedmen did not assume a shape that would unduly inconvenience the old elite. He had sold himself on the idea that the system of free labor should should approximate as nearly as possible the usages of slavery, since the latter represented "the results of experience"; and he later recommended scrapping the Freedmen's Bureau. The general was as steadfast and loyal a friend as the Natchez elite could have hoped for in these turbulent times. pp47-47 New Masters by Lawrence N. Powell

So, you are of the opinion this tells the WHOLE story, that all "Yankees" are cut from the same cloth, perform in exactly the same manner when confronting slavery and negroes, that they are robots and are all programed alike in the North. Wow.


Seems as though the 21st Century Yankees views are different than the Majority of the 19th Century Yankees.

And here is where you keep making the same mistake, over and over again. There are no 21st century Yankees just as there are no 21st century Rebels. They are all dead and buried and calling those who oppose your theory on the cause of that 19th century war "Yankees" shows a real desire to defeclt from actual history with emotion vice fact.

Anyhow, Yankees are going to drop the Negro and go west to Murder Indians.

(SIGH!) Proceeded by and then followed by Southerners who have no more regard for Indian rights than they did.

All for the benefit of the White Man. We, The People, I mean White People.

ALL OF US WHITE PEOPLE, North and South, in other words, The United States of America, at the time of the 19th century. No one here has denied it, but few of us point a finger at just one region in order to escape blame for their own ancestors sins.

Reality vs Hoping how it should of been.

The hope should be that "it is history that teaches us to hope" and to learn from our past mistakes so we do not commit them again in the future. We can't do that until we are honest about our history and stop poking ourselves in the eyes with all the needless finger-pointing.

Entertaining
Should be more about being educational.

Unionblue
 

Robin Lesjovitch

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405
To address the original question, there was nothing subtle about the advance of sectionalism.
Now, and before 1850, politicians perfectly understood how them and us could be used to advantage.
By the late 1840's the temptation to point to the continuity of the slave states and the continuity of the free states north of them as potential us or them was too great to resist. The last batch of Whig leaders tried and saw their Party flounder. The Republican Party filled the void, and that Party was not shy about sectionalism. If people could start equating Party and Section, then every issue could be boiled down to a single word: slavery. People could then find themselves believing all manner of things they never thought before, so long as they did not resemble them. When the Democratic Party yielded to the reality, there was no more National politics.
Any map of the US in 1850 should bring up visions of politicians drooling over the possibilities. As the last batch of nationalists were gone, there was nothing to stop what was to come.
 


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