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Why did the AVERAGE soldier fight in the ACW

Discussion in 'Civil War History - Secession and Politics' started by johan_steele, Jun 12, 2009.

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  1. larry_cockerham

    larry_cockerham Southern Gentleman, Lest We Forget, 2011 Honored Fallen Comrade

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    A few details are being missed here, but that's been discussed before.
     

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  3. Elennsar

    Elennsar Colonel

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    Larry, much as we both would wish it otherwise, the mountain men of Tennesee and North Carolina are not reflective of the average Southerner.

    No one (or at least very few) answered the call to arms in 1861 to deal with pig stealers, either.
     
  4. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    Not according to the secessionists themselves, who told us they were seceding in order to protect the institution of slavery. Slavery was the direct cause of secession, which is what led to the war. No secession, no war. No slavery, no secession.


    "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery. ... There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union" [Mississippi Declaration of Causes]

    "A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction." [South Carolina Declaration of Causes]

    "For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery." [Georgia Declaration of Causes]

    "In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States." [Texas Declaration of Causes]

    "What was the reason that induced Georgia to take the step of secession? This reason may be summed up in one single proposition. It was a conviction, a deep conviction on the part of Georgia, that a separation from the North was the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery." [Henry Benning, Commissioner of Georgia to Virginia's Secession Convention, 18 Feb 1861]

    "Our people have come to this on the question of slavery." [Lawrence Keitt, South Carolina Secession Debates, Taken from the Charleston, South Carolina, Courier, dated Dec. 22, 1860.]

    "The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact." [Alexander Stephens, Savannah, Georgia, 21 March 1861]

    Alfred P. Aldrich, South Carolina legislator from Barnwell: "If the Republican party with its platform of principles, the main feature of which is the abolition of slavery and, therefore, the destruction of the South, carries the country at the next Presidential election, shall we remain in the Union, or form a separate Confederacy? This is the great, grave issue. It is not who shall be President, it is not which party shall rule -- it is a question of political and social existence." [Steven Channing, Crisis of Fear, pp. 141-142.]

    "Better, far better! endure all the horrors of civil war than to see the dusky sons of Ham leading the fair daughters of the South to the altar." [Virginian William M. Thompson to his father, Warner A. Thompson, 2 Feb 1861]

    "Our homes, our firesides our land and negroes and even the virtue of our fair ones is at stake." [W. R. Redding, 13th Georgia, to "Lizzie," Aug, 1861]

    "The vandals of the North . . . are determined to destroy slavery. . . . We must all fight, and I choose to fight for southern rights and southern liberty." [Kentuckian Lunsford Yandell, Jr., to Sally Yandell, 22 Apr 1861]

    "A stand must be made for African slavery or it is forever lost." [William Grimball of South Carolina to Elizabeth Grimball, 20 Nov 1860]

    "The Confederate states are united by the institution of slavery, a bond of union stronger than any which holds the north together." [Berkley Grimball, brother of William Grimball, to Elizabeth Grimball, 8 Dec 1860]

    "We are fighting for our liberty against tyrants of the North . . . who are determined to destroy slavery." [Lunsford Yandell, Jr., to Sally Yandell, 22 Apr 1861]

    When the wife of a captain in the 15th Georgia asked about the future of slavery, he told her that if the Confederacy won the war "it is established for centuries." [Edgeworth Bird to Sallie Bird, 28 Aug 1863]

    "This country without slave labor would be completely worthless. We can only live & exist by that species of labor: and hence I am willing to fight to the last." [William Nugent, 28th Mississippi, to Eleanor Nugent, 7 Sep 1863]

    A captain in the 8th Alabama said he would "fight forever, rather than submit to freeing negroes among us. . . . [We are fighting for] rights and property bequeathed to us by our ancestors." [Elias Davis to Mrs. R. L. Lathan, 10 Dec 1863]

    "The [Emancipation] Proclamation is worth three hundred thousand soldiers to our Government at least. It shows exactly what this war was brought about for and the intention of its ****able authors." [Henry L. Stone, a sergeant with Morgan's cavalry, to his father, 13 Feb 1863]

    "After Lincoln's [Emancipation] Proclamation any man that would not fight to the last should be hung as high as Haman." [John Welsh, 27th Virginia, to his mother and his wife, 26 Jan 1863]

    "I never want to see the day when a negro is put on an equality with a white person. There is too many free ni**ers . . . now to suit me, let alone having four millions." [George Hamill Diary, March, 1862]

    The son of a North Carolina dirt farmer said he would never stop fighting the Yankees "trying to force us to live as the colored race." [Samuel Walsh to Louisa Proffitt, 11 Apr 1864]

    "Some of the boys asked them [Confederate prisoners] what they were fighting for, and they answered, 'You Yanks want us to marry our daughters to the ni**ers.' " [Chancey Cook, 25th Wisconsin, to his parents, 10 May 1864]

    "[If the Yankees won, my] sister, wife, and mother are to be given up to the embraces of their present dusky male servitors." [Thomas Key of Arkansas, Diary Entry, 10 Apr 1864]

    "[Lincoln not only wants to free the slaves but also] declares them entitled to all the rights and privileges as American citizens. So imagine your sweet little girls in the school room with a black wolly headed negro and
    have to treat them as their equal." [William W. Garner to Henrietta Garner, 2 Jan 1864]

    "[If Atlanta and Richmond fall] we are irrevocably lost and not only will the negroes be free but . . . we will all be on a common level. . . . The negro who now waits on you will then be as free as you are & as insolent as she is ignorant." [Allen D. Candler to his wife, 7 July 1864]

    "The South had always been solid for slavery and when the quarrel about it resulted in a conflict of arms, those who had approved the policy of disunion took the pro-slavery side. It was perfectly logical to fight for slavery, if it was right to own slaves." [John S. Mosby, _Mosby's Memoirs,_ p. 20]

    John Townsend, "The Doom of Slavery in the Union: Its Safety Out of It," a speech delivered 29 Oct 1860 at The Edisto Island Vigilant Association, in South Carolina: "I call upon you then, men of the South, (not the poltroons of the South) true men of the South, (not traitors of the South), to rally to the rescue of your cherished, native land. Suffer not the counsels of the submissionist to prevail. Honor and duty call upon you for resistance,-undying resistance,-to defend your country against the ready purposes of her enemies [abolition of slavery]."

    It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern States and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community. . . . Shall we wait until our enemies shall possess themselves of all the powers of the Government? until Abolition Judges are on the Supreme Court bench, Abolition Collectors at every port, and Abolition Postmasters in every town, secret mail agents traversing the whole land, and a subsidized Press established in our midst to demoralize the people? Will we be stronger then, or better prepared to meet the struggle, if a struggle must come? No, verily!" [Letter of Stephen F. Hale to Gov. Magoffin of Kentucky, 27 Dec 1860]

    “At a meeting of Louisiana students attending the University of North Carolina, nineteen-year-old Thomas Davidson recorded the proceedings. The Louisianans accused ‘fanatics of the North’ of robbing ‘the South of her most cherished liberties,’ and pledged their lives to the protection of slavery, ‘that Institution at once our pride and the source of all our wealth and prosperity.’” [Resolutions of Louisiana students at the University of North Carolina, 1861. The undated resolutions followed Louisiana’s seizure of forts on 26 Jan 1861. Quoted in Chandra Manning, What This Cruel War Was Over: Soldiers, Slavery, and the Civil War, p. 19] “Thomas Davidson served the Confederacy as a private in the Nineteenth Louisiana Infantry until he was killed at Atlanta.” [Ibid., p. 21]

    “As one Virginia private put it, ‘the poisonous germ which must have sooner or later brought about a conflict between the two sections of the United States’ was Northerners’ apparent determination to bar ‘slaveholders from introducing slavery’ into the territories.” [Pvt. John Lyon Hill, Churchville Cavalry (Later Va. Cavalry), diary, 9 Aug 1861, Camp Alleghany, Va., quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., pp. 21-22]

    “As Rufus Carter put it, when northern ‘fanatics’ like Lincoln ‘misinterpreted and “perverted’ the Constitution to bar slavery from the western territories, they relieved white Southerners of all obligations of loyalty, and licensed the southern states to frame a new government ‘suited to themselves,’ even if doing so precipitated war.” [Lt Rufus Carter, 19th LA, to cousin, 26 Jun 1861, quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., p. 24]

    “Shared belief in the dangers of abolition powerfully united Confederate soldiers and motivated them to fight, even when they shared little else. An urbane young lawyer and son of a wealthy South Carolina plantation owner recognized the unifying potential of perceived threats to slavery when he urged ‘the whole South to make common cause against the hordes of abolitionists who are swarming southwards.” [Lt Christopher Winsmith, 1st SC, to mother, 24 Apr 1861, quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., p. 31]

    “Joseph Bruckmuller, a German immigrant saloon keeper who fought with the Seventh Texas, had almost nothing in common with the scion of the Palmetto State, yet Bruckmuller also saw the need to preserve slavery as a powerful glue binding all whites in the South. Scoffing at ‘improve-the-world ideas of emancipation,’ Bruckmuller urged his fellow ‘adoption citizens’ to stand by ‘your own countrymen and race’ against the ‘murder and arson, hanging and stealing’ that were sure to accompany the ‘liberation of the half-civilized cannibal.’” [Pvt Joseph Bruckmuller, 7th TX, Address delivered to other prisoners at Ft. Douglas Prison, Chicago, June, 1862, quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., pp. 31-32]

    “When discussing reasons for the conflict, a Georgia regimental newspaper, The Spirit of ‘61, pointed to personal liberty laws, ‘those grievous enactments of some of the free state legislatures in regard to fugitive slaves,’ as evidence that Northerners were ‘black hearted abolitionists’ who must be opposed before they crushed slavery.” [_The Spirit of ‘61,_ the camp paper of the 18th Georgia, 25 Dec 1861, quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., p. 32]

    “Confound the whole set of Psalm singing ‘brethren’ and ‘sistern’ too. If it had not been for them preaching abolitionism from every northern pulpit, I would never have been soldiering.” [Pvt. James Williams, 21st AL, to wife, 20 Dec 1861]

    South Carolina soldier Chesley Herbert summed up many white Southerners’ conflation of abolitionism with general moral decay when he dismissed Northerners everywhere and unionists in border states as ‘abolitionist and any other sort of an ‘ist’ that is not good.’” [Lt. Chesley Herbert, 3rd SC, to wife, 3 Jul 1861, quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., pp. 34-35]

    “Georgia soldier A. H. Mitchell, for one, linked abolitionism in the North to other moral pathologies like ‘spiritualism and free love.’” [Georgia soldier A. H. Mitchell to father, 17 May 1861, quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., p. 35]

    “Where the two races approximate equality in numbers, slavery is the only protection of the laboring classes against the evils of amalgamation."“ [“The Irrepressible Conflict,” Richmond Enquirer, 2 Oct 1860]

    “One Georgia recruit fretted about rumors that slaves who thought the war meant freedom were already discussing ‘whom they would make their wives among the young [white] ladies.’” [Thomas, private in a Ga. Regiment, to mother, 10 May 1861, quoted in Manning, Op. Cit., p. 36]

    Regards,
    Cash
     
  5. dvrmte

    dvrmte Major

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    Siding with the Confederate States of America would make someone anti-American...... hmmmm.....
     
  6. Elennsar

    Elennsar Colonel

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    Being of the North American continent and being American in the sense of the United States of America - which rightly or wrongly has the term "American" (did the Confederates have one for their wannabe nation?) are two different things.

    So yes, anti-American. "Anti-Northern" tries to make it a regional thing when the "region" is every other part of the United States than the eleven states in rebellion - and New England and the Old Northwest are not the same.
     
  7. dvrmte

    dvrmte Major

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    Wow, alot of those comments sound like Abe Lincoln's opinions of negroes.
     
  8. johan_steele

    johan_steele Colonel Retired Moderator

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    No dvrmte they are the opinions of the leadership of the Seccessionist movement all the way down to some individual PRIVATES. Was it the opinion of every soldier that served w/ the CS? No, but it certainly was the opinion of darn near every CS politician that sent a CS soldier toward the Sharp End. The CS built its cornerstone on slavery, rebelling because of a perceived threat against there favorite institution.

    Was the average CW soldier for slavery? I don't think a majority gave a **** one way or the other but they certainly knew why they were there. From Sam Watkins on you will find the majority of CS soldiers knew why the war had started and whether he agreed w/ it or not he was fighting for a flag that had a VP who gave the Cornerstone speech... and darned few secessionists disagreed w/ that speech. Every single CS state wasw a slavestate and there was no courting of the non slaveholding west, none. No commisioners were sent to Indiana, Iowa or Wisconsin... because they weren't states that were interested in slavery.

    Now cash and others have been kind enough to back up opinions w/ published works. Thank them and contribute something more than just opinion and drop the bumper sticker replies; this isn't a Michael Moore style site.
     
  9. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    About 1/3 of southern families, according to the 1860 Census, were slave-owning families. Not only would the nonslaveholders fight to protect slavery, they did, and they knew they were doing so.


    So they fought to protect slavery.


    No. That statistic comes from the 1820s. In the 1830s they began to decline in the south so that by the 1850s there were virtually none in the south.


    True of the 18th Century and early 19th Century. Not true by the mid-19th Century.

    And yet none of the southern states ever took a single step toward this. Blows your theory out of the water.

    Absolutely false statment. That is an utter and complete lie that someone has told you.


    And yet "the North" had rid itself of slavery voluntarily, while the states that seceded fought a war in order to try to preserve it.

    Wrong. Enslavement of Indians was first done by Christopher Columbus, but Indians generally didn't work out as slaves, primarily because they knew the territory and could escape with great ease. By the 1600s, servants were first and foremost indentured. The first blacks were enslaved in the south, in Maryland and Virginia.

    Winthrop D. Jordan writes in _The White Man's Burden: Historical Origins of Racism in the United States,_ ""In rough outline, slavery's development in the tobacco colonies seems to have undergone three stages. Africans first arrived in 1619, an event Captain John Smith referred to with the utmost unconcern: ' About the last of August came in a dutch man of warre that sold us twenty Negars. ' Africans trickled in slowly for the next half-century; one report in 1649 estimated that there were threee hundred among Virginia's population of fifteen thousand -- about 2 per cent. Long before there were more appreciable numbers, the development of slavery had, so far as we can tell, shifted gears. Prior to about 1640 there is mounting evidence that some Negroes were in fact being treated as slaves. This is to say that the twin essences of slavery -- lifetime service and inherited status -- first became evident during the twenty years prior to the beginning of legal formulation. After 1660 slavery was written into statute law." [Jordan, _The White Man's Burden: Historical Origins of Racism in the
    United States,_ page 40]

    Jordan writes later on, "When the first fragmentary evidence appears about 1640 it becomes clear that some Negroes in both Virginia and Maryland were serving for life and some Negro children inheriting the same obligation. Not all blacks, certainly, for after the mid-1640s the court records show that some Negroes were incontestably free and were accumulating property of their own. At least one black freeman, Anthony Johnson, himself owned a slave. Some blacks served only terms of usual length, but others were held for terms far longer than custom and statute permitted with white servants. The first fairly clear indication that slavery was practiced in the tobacco colonies appears in 1639, when a Maryland statute declared that ' all the Inhabitants of this Province being Christians (Slaves excepted) Shall have and enjoy all such rights liberties immunities privileges and free customs within this Province as any naturall born subject of England.' Another Maryland law passed the same year provided that 'all persons being Christians (Slaves excepted)' over eighteen who were imported without indentures would serve for four years." [Jordan, pages 41-42]

    Note that 1639 is prior to 1641.

    "The next year, 1640, the first definite indication of outright enslavement appears in Virginia. The General Court pronounced sentence on three servants who had been retaken after absconding to Maryland. Two of them, both white, were ordered to serve their masters for one additional year and then the colony for three more, but ' the third being a negro named John Punch shall serve his said master or his assigns for the time of his natural life here or else where.' " [Jordan, page 42]

    "After 1640, when surviving Virginia county court records began to mention Negroes, sales for life, often including any future progeny, were recorded in unmistakable language. In 1646 Francis Pott sold a Negro woman and boy to Stephen Charlton ' to the use of him ... forever. ' Similarly, six years later William Whittington sold to John Pott ' one Negroe girle named Jowan; aged about Ten yeares and with her Issue and produce duringe her (or either of them) for their Life tyme. And their Successors forever' ; and a Maryland man in 1649 deeded two Negro men and a woman ' and all their issue both male and Female. ' The executors of a York County estate in 1647 disposed of eight Negroes -- four men, two women, and two children -- to Captain John Chisman ' to have hold occupy possesse and injoy and every one of the afforementioned Negroes forever.' " [Jordan, page 42]

    John Hope Franklin also talks about the development of slavery in Virginia: "Most of the Negroes brought into Virginia after 1640 had no indentures or contracts and could not look forward to freedom after a specified term of service. Some others that were brought in enjoyed the dubious distinction of having contracts providing that they were ' servants for life ' or ' perpetual servants. ' " [John Hope Franklin, _From Slavery to Freedom: A History of Negro Americans,_ Third Edition, page 72]

    Valuations for blacks in sales, auctions, and estate inventories were significantly higher, in the 1640s and 1650s, than for whites, indicating more years of service available to the purchaser. This means that they were slaves for life.

    Note that 1640 is prior to 1641.

    So what?

    Which officer? I can fill this thread with specific statements from specific, named confederate soldiers who said they were fighting to preserve slavery.

    Wrong again.

    You are confused. While it's true that R.E. Lee, as executor of the Custis will, manumitted the Custis slaves as required by the will of his father-in-law, George Washington Parke Custis, these were not his slaves. We know R. E. Lee owned slaves of his own, and while we have a record of his freeing two of them and sending them to Liberia, we have no record of his ever freeing any of the others.


    Completely false. In the first place, Julia Grant didn't own the slaves that she had use of. They were owned by her father. There is no record at all of any title to those slaves changing to Julia. Indeed, Grant was on record as saying that if he ever got control of those slaves he would free them.

    In the second place, they all freed themselves by 1863. In January of 1864, the Grants' son Fred, living with his grandfather in Missouri at the time, became sick with typhoid. Grant and Julia made plans to go to him. One of the former slaves, also named Julia, had been hired as a paid nurse. Julia (the former slave) did not want to return to Missouri with the Grants because she feared she would be reenslaved. [Brooks D. Simpson, _Ulysses S. Grant: Triumph Over Adversity, 1822-1865,_ p. 255]


    That's a fabrication. Grant never said it.

    A more accurate title for her is "Liar for the UDC" and her book is more accurately titled, _Lies About History._


    Completely false claim.


    Another lie someone has told you. There are a number of threads in this forum on the black confederate mythology that you can read.

    It looks like you've wasted all those years of study.

    Regards,
    Cash
     
  10. dvrmte

    dvrmte Major

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    More southerner's quotes:

    "It is marvellous with what wild-fire rapidity this tune of Dixie has spread over the whole South. Considered as an intolerable nuisance when first the streets re-echoed it from the repertoire of wandering minstrels, it now bids fair to become the musical symbol of a new nationality, and we shall be fortunate if it does not impose its very name on our country."
    "The word 'Dixie' is an abbreviation of 'Mason and Dixon's line', as the line separating Maryland and Pennsylvania is called."

    Henry Hotze, Mobile Cadets, May 5, 1861​


    I was never a Secessionist, for I quietly adopted father's views on political subjects without meddling with them. But even father went over with his State, and when so many outrages were committed by the fanatical leaders of the North, though he regretted the Union, said, "Fight to the death for our liberty." I say so, too. I want to fight until we win the cause so many have died for. I don't believe in Secession, but I do in Liberty. I want the South to conquer, dictate its own terms, and go back to the Union, for I believe that, apart, inevitable ruin awaits both. It is a rope of sand, this Confederacy, founded on the doctrine of Secession, and will not last many years - not five. The North Cannot subdue us. We are too determined to be free. They have no right to confiscate our property to pay debts they themselves have incurred. Death as a nation, rather than Union on such terms. We will have our rights secured on so firm a basis that it can never be shaken. If by power of overwhelming numbers they conquer us, it will be a barren victory over a desolate land. "
    Sarah Morgan Dawson
    Confederate Girl's Diary, p32.


    "It is stated in books and papers that Southern children read and study that all the blood shedding and destruction of property of that conflict was because the South rebelled without cause against the best government the world ever saw; that although Southern soldiers were heroes in the field, skillfully massed and led, they and their leaders were rebels and traitors who fought to overthrow the Union, and to preserve human slavery, and that their defeat was necessary for free government and the welfare of the human family. As a Confederate soldier and as a citizen of Virginia, I deny the charge, and denounce it as a calumny. We were not rebels; we did not fight to perpetuate human slavery, but for our rights and privileges under a government established over us by our fathers and in defense of our homes."
    Colonel Richard Henry Lee, C.S.A.

    "As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps eighty per cent. of her armies were neither slave-holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its beginning to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the Union."
    Major General John B. Gordon, from his book, Causes of the Civil War.



    "My shoes are gone; my clothes are almost gone. I'm weary, I'm sick, I'm hungry. My family have been killed or scattered. And I have suffered all this for my country. I love my country. But if this war is ever over, I'll be ****ed if I ever love another country." --- Confederate Soldier During Retreat To Appomattox


    "We'll fight them, sir, 'til hell freezes over, and then, sir, we will fight them on the ice."


    A Confederate soldier at Gettysburg, in The Civil War by Shelby Foote



     
  11. Glorybound

    Glorybound Major Retired Moderator Honored Fallen Comrade

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    This was the average CW soldier? He's kinda small ain't he? Just wondering out loud here...





    Lee
     
  12. Freddy

    Freddy 2nd Lieutenant

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    Here is the problem I have. These are not primary sources, but comentaries by historians.

    The sociologist part of me wants to see the actual letters from a random sampling of Union soldiers, and not some that were cherry picked to support a particular point of view. Has Catton or Manning provided them?
     
  13. dvrmte

    dvrmte Major

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    Quotes of Abraham Lincoln the Great Emancipator


    "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

    The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these territories. We want them for the homes of free white people." ~ Lincoln, on whether blacks – slave or free – should be allowed in the new territories in the west, October 16, 1854.

    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Root, hog, or die" ~ Lincoln's suggestion to illiterate and propertyless ex-slaves unprepared for freedom, Feb. 3, 1865.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Send them to Liberia, to their own native land." ~ Lincoln, speaking in favor of ethnic cleansing all blacks from the United States.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I favor colonization." ~ Lincoln, in a message to Congress, December 1, 1862, supporting deportation of all blacks from America.[/FONT]


    Sincerely,
    dvrmte​
     
  14. Elennsar

    Elennsar Colonel

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    Dvrmte, if you are seriously going to refer to colonization as "ethnic cleansing", then I hope you're comfortable being placed on the list of "incurable trolls".

    Exageration to make a point has a tendancy towards obnoxiousness. Outright slander and dishonesty is...well, bovine scat.

    Taking Lincoln's quote on "Root hog, or die" completely out of context is also the sort of thing that's a great way to be written off as hopeless.

    I know you said you like being an underdog, but the only kind of "under" that makes you is "beneath", as in beneath contempt.

    You're smarter than that. Please don't act otherwise.
     
  15. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    Manning's book is filled with letters, diary entries, and newspaper commentary by soldiers from both sides.

    Regards,
    Cash
     
  16. Glorybound

    Glorybound Major Retired Moderator Honored Fallen Comrade

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    This kind of mischaracterization is akin to Lincoln-bashing. If one is going to cherry-pick these kind of quotes from Lincoln the least that one can do to be fair is post the entire speech or letter. Cherry picking quotes to present an historic figure as something that he/she is not paints a false picture of that person. It's a transparent attempt to present that person in a bad light, to distort his true character.

    Just as painting Jeff Davis in a bad light by cherry-picking and presenting quotes out of context can be seen as inflammatory on this board, the same can be said for mischaracterizing Lincoln in such a manner.

    Posted in the capacity of moderator



    Lee
     
  17. dvrmte

    dvrmte Major

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    You're right. I worked 12 hours night shift last night and haven't slept. I really planned on deleting the "ethnic cleansing" part out as it was pasted as is from a website. I got a little lazy.
    My intentions were just to show that racism existed throughout the country in the antebellum era. In hindsight there is no point in it, everyone knows.
     
  18. Freddy

    Freddy 2nd Lieutenant

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    Manning looked at less than 700 Union soldier's records. Was this a random survey? Less than 700 out of 2.5 million Union soldiers are studied. That is less than .0003% of all Union soldiers. I am not saying Manning is correct or incorrect. However, I have little confidence in her numbers and no knowledge of her sampling method.

    Here is what a reviewer of Manning's book wrote.

    "Manning surveys the archival records of 657 Union and 477 Confederate soldiers, along with regimental newspapers, to tell the story of how slavery and race influenced the men who volunteered and fought through the Civil War. She surveys soldiers from all theaters, native-born and immigrant Union enlisted men, non-slaveholding and slaveholding Confederate soldiers, and United States Colored Troops. For those familiar with the relevant historiography, many of Manning’s interpretive points will sound familiar. In 1997 James McPherson published With Cause and Comrades (Oxford University Press), which provided one of the most sophisticated accounts of how slavery and race shaped the political and ideological outlooks of soldiers in both armies. Manning adds to the debate by analyzing these views over time, in hopes of uncovering the often-subtle ways in which soldiers’ statements about slavery evolved."
    http://www.ambrosebierce.org/journal3levin.html
     
  19. OpnOlympic

    OpnOlympic Cadet

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    I must admit I do derive a certain grim amusement from the desperate contortion of facts and convoluted reasoning of modern day Neo-confederates to avoid the simple fact that most csa leaders were proud to proclaim to the world, their right to own slaves as their Cause.
    Does Rebelrose, believe there would have been a CW if their had been No slaves Or if emancipation had been accepted by the south?


    P.S. of course I understand the extreme stress such contortions and convolution does to southern defenders thought processes, but it derives from knowing(or at least suspecting) that they cannot be as pround and truthful as their ancestors were about the southern 'cause' they fought a war to defend.
     
  20. Scribe

    Scribe Cadet

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    And that has whay to do with why Hotze fought? Was in because he was angry that the song written by a northern minstrel had become the unofficial anthem of the Confederacy, or was it that he was so inspired by the tune?


    "They have no right to confiscate our property to pay debts they themselves have incurred."

    And what "property" might that have been?


    The familiar after the war "we didn't fight for slavery" rationale.

    Once again, the disengenuous after the war "we didn't fight for slavery" rationale.

    And why did he feel this way? Why did he fight?


    And why did he feel this way? Why did he fight?
     
  21. larry_cockerham

    larry_cockerham Southern Gentleman, Lest We Forget, 2011 Honored Fallen Comrade

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    If you truly believe that and wish to ignore the inherent inaccuracies contained therein, that is your priviledge. Many of us don't.
     

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