Pickett Longstreet Golden Thread Why Did Lt. Gen James Longstreet Feel So Strongly The Pickett-Pettigrew-Trimble Assault Would Fail?

Being a scientific kind of guy, stating that someone's feelings are hurt and they are whining are not facts, but opinions and conjectures.

I do not know Jeff Shaara wrote a book by adding his opinions and feeling of his characters. He has creative license and I do not. His son follows his father footsteps by doing the same.

To follow up, I have given facts and a timeline and a place to reference them and everyone has chosen to poopoo on them. I figure everyone is suffering from Mandala Effect. Longstreet rides off with Lee to discuss making new attack plans and he has no credit or blame of the new plans that become Pickett Charge. Everyone wants to believe Lee woke up with Pickett charge in mind and he did not. He still wanted to turn the union flank and roll then up. I am going with either Group Think or the Mandala Effect...

what basis do you say Hood and McLaws were in top shape to lead a head on attack a 2nd day in a row?

I do not say they were in top shape but they were not broken either and they would have fought well if the union had chosen to go on the offensive. They could have continued the fight with Pickett in support, as Lee first wanted.

Hood and Mclaws men would not have had to cross a mile of open ground that makes the bigger difference then tried troops.

Why Longstreet is being criticized for doing his job is beyond me.

I think he was being disingenuous with Lee.
 
Everyone wants to believe Lee woke up with Pickett charge in mind and he did not. He still wanted to turn the union flank and roll then up. I am going with either Group Think or the Mandala Effect...

The reason the flank attack was abandoned is because Pickett's division didn't reach Gettysburg until several hours after dawn. Lee expected him there at dawn. Longstreet's reporting the condition of Hood's and McLaws's divisions had nothing to do with the plan of attack, only who would participate in it!
 
To follow up, I have given facts and a timeline and a place to reference them and everyone has chosen to poopoo on them. I figure everyone is suffering from Mandala Effect. Longstreet rides off with Lee to discuss making new attack plans and he has no credit or blame of the new plans that become Pickett Charge. Everyone wants to believe Lee woke up with Pickett charge in mind and he did not. He still wanted to turn the union flank and roll then up. I am going with either Group Think or the Mandala Effect...

You've not shown that Longstreet helped come up with the plan. You're speculating based on his presence and nothing more.

I do not say they were in top shape but they were not broken either and they would have fought well if the union had chosen to go on the offensive. They could have continued the fight with Pickett in support, as Lee first wanted.

Hood and Mclaws men would not have had to cross a mile of open ground that makes the bigger difference then tried troops.

The two divisions were in pretty rough shape, particularly the officer corps. In any case, they weren't able to take the positions when the Union wasn't ready for them; how do you think they'd do after the Union left was reinforced and dug in? Pickett's Division wasn't going to change that arithmetic.

In any case, if Lee wanted another attack, he may have wanted to write tighter orders for his subordinates and make sure they were understood. The buck stops right there.

Ryan
 
The reason the flank attack was abandoned is because Pickett's division didn't reach Gettysburg until several hours after dawn. Lee expected him there at dawn. Longstreet's reporting the condition of Hood's and McLaws's divisions had nothing to do with the plan of attack, only who would participate in it!

Pickett's men arrived in the evening of July 2nd and Lee told him to rest his men because they wouldn't be needed that day. Why he wasn't sent toward Longstreet later that evening or before dawn is a failure of the high command.

Ryan
 
You've not shown that Longstreet helped come up with the plan. You're speculating based on his presence and nothing more.



The two divisions were in pretty rough shape, particularly the officer corps. In any case, they weren't able to take the positions when the Union wasn't ready for them; how do you think they'd do after the Union left was reinforced and dug in? Pickett's Division wasn't going to change that arithmetic.

In any case, if Lee wanted another attack, he may have wanted to write tighter orders for his subordinates and make sure they were understood. The buck stops right there.

Ryan
Pickett's men arrived in the evening of July 2nd and Lee told him to rest his men because they wouldn't be needed that day. Why he wasn't sent toward Longstreet later that evening or before dawn is a failure of the high command.

Ryan

It's my understanding that Pickett arrived on the 2nd and sent Major Walter Harrison to Lee for orders while Pickett rode to find Longstreet. Lee informed Harrison that Pickett would not be needed that day and when he needed him he would send orders to him. Lee told Pickett to have his men rest. That being said, Pickett camped at Marsh Creek, woke his men at 3:00 AM and marched for the battlefield arriving several hours after dawn. In order for him to be there at dawn Pickett would have had to have his men up by midnight. This suggests Pickett was never informed of Lee's dawn flank attack plan.
 
It's my understanding that Pickett arrived on the 2nd and sent Major Walter Harrison to Lee for orders while Pickett rode to find Longstreet. Lee informed Harrison that Pickett would not be needed that day and when he needed him he would send orders to him. Lee told Pickett to have his men rest. That being said, Pickett camped at Marsh Creek, woke his men at 3:00 AM and marched for the battlefield arriving several hours after dawn. In order for him to be there at dawn Pickett would have had to have his men up by midnight. This suggests Pickett was never informed of Lee's dawn flank attack plan.

I agree. Coddington said the March would take 5-6 hours so a midnight start time is feasible. In a pinch, they could have been moving by 9 or so after a few hours rest.

Ryan
 
It is well recorded that James Longstreet was not in favor of R.E Lee's decision to attack the Union Center with approx. Thirteen Thousand men on day three at Gettysburg. His actions during the 3rd day have been used ever since by his critics. Were his actions insubordination? The answer to that question is, No. Was it his belief that a movement around the Unions left flank was a better option? Again the answer is, No. The reason James Longstreet stated "Never Was I So Depressed" is because he believed he was sending his men to a slaughter pen. Why would he feel this way? Lee order the assault and believed it would be successful if properly executed. Was Lee wrong? Again the answer would be, No. How can both generals be correct? Lee using sound tactical reasoning had assumed his punishing assaults the previous two days on the enemy's flanks would have caused them to reinforce those positons making the center the likely weak point in the line. This was sound military thinking done by a West Point trained officer. Lee completely understood the negatives of his plan and accepted them. He was audacious in nature. Longstreet on the other hand also a West Point trained officer realized the futility of the movement. While he would agree Lee's proposed attack was sound military reasoning, Longstreet was cautious in nature. The attack order by the Commanding General defied the training both men received at West Point. The army on the offensive should numerically outnumber the army on the defensive by a margin of four or five to one. The confederates simply did not have anywhere near this numeric superiority. Lee was depending on several factors to work in his favor. He depended on Ewell's early morning attack on Cemetery Ridge to fool Meade into moving sufficient troops to his flanks, Lee depended on the past splendid performance of his army vs the past poor performance of the AOP. Lee expected the critical mistake to be made at the critical time that had always lead to his past successes. The audacious general had forgotten the prediction he had made just a few days earlier when he learned George Gordon Meade had taken command of the AOP. "Meade will make no mistake in my front and will take advantage of any that I make" Longstreet being a conservative thinker understood the odds and felt no mistake would be made and was not willing to gamble the lives of his men on such a longshot. Had the Confederacy processed the numbers necessary Longstreet would have undoubtable been much more than agreeable. Was he wrong? Both men completely understood the situation fully.
IMO there are other faults of Longstreet on day three that hold much more validity to criticize than his lack of enthusiasm for an assault that was destined to fail before it began. As it turns out Longstreet was correct and the assault failed.
My short answer is because it failed with a larger force the day before.
My personal belief is that Lee's thinking was that the failure on July 2 was due to the many mistakes: virtually everything that could go wrong went wrong. Even with that, it almost succeeded. Surely 'this time we'll get it right.'
Longstreet did his duty. Leaders may like 'yes men', but they are better off with those who have the courage to provide an honest assessment.
 
I do not know Jeff Shaara wrote a book by adding his opinions and feeling of his characters. He has creative license and I do not. His son follows his father footsteps by doing the same.

To follow up, I have given facts and a timeline and a place to reference them and everyone has chosen to poopoo on them. I figure everyone is suffering from Mandala Effect. Longstreet rides off with Lee to discuss making new attack plans and he has no credit or blame of the new plans that become Pickett Charge. Everyone wants to believe Lee woke up with Pickett charge in mind and he did not. He still wanted to turn the union flank and roll then up. I am going with either Group Think or the Mandala Effect...



I do not say they were in top shape but they were not broken either and they would have fought well if the union had chosen to go on the offensive. They could have continued the fight with Pickett in support, as Lee first wanted.

Hood and Mclaws men would not have had to cross a mile of open ground that makes the bigger difference then tried troops.



I think he was being disingenuous with Lee.


You take creative license when you present your opinion as facts consistently over and over. I also love the subtle personal attack that we're all too stupid to think for ourselves.
 
I do not know Jeff Shaara wrote a book by adding his opinions and feeling of his characters. He has creative license and I do not. His son follows his father footsteps by doing the same.

To follow up, I have given facts and a timeline and a place to reference them and everyone has chosen to poopoo on them. I figure everyone is suffering from Mandala Effect. Longstreet rides off with Lee to discuss making new attack plans and he has no credit or blame of the new plans that become Pickett Charge. Everyone wants to believe Lee woke up with Pickett charge in mind and he did not. He still wanted to turn the union flank and roll then up. I am going with either Group Think or the Mandala Effect...



I do not say they were in top shape but they were not broken either and they would have fought well if the union had chosen to go on the offensive. They could have continued the fight with Pickett in support, as Lee first wanted.

Hood and Mclaws men would not have had to cross a mile of open ground that makes the bigger difference then tried troops.



I think he was being disingenuous with Lee.

Worse than that, Fish. He flat out disobeyed orders from General Lee! Wert's book has a chapter on Longstreet behavior on the 3rd day. 5 year old would have done more.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AK78R5S/?tag=civilwartalkc-20
 
Worse than that, Fish. He flat out disobeyed orders from General Lee! Wert's book has a chapter on Longstreet behavior on the 3rd day. 5 year old would have done more.

https://www.amazon.com/General-James-Longstreet-Confederacys-Controversial-ebook/dp/B00AK78R5S/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1493731815&sr=1-1&keywords=Jeffrey+Wert,+Longstreet
He did what's was required to send his men to slaughter. No where in the manual does it say he had to do it enthusiastically
 
Read the book. I posted which one it was. I am sure you have it?
If you are referring to Longstreet preparing for a flank movement rather than a frontal assault. The order was vague and Longstreet felt he had the discretion to perform the attack as he saw fit. Is that what you are talking about?
 
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