So you are saying the States had Sovereignty up to the Civil War?As usual Vareb, its all the South's fault! Technically never, but for practical purpose, you can look at it in two steps: 1. Civil War - first income tax, giving the Federal government the tool necessary to actually possess sufficient resources (couple this with the XVI Amendment of course); 2. Great Depression - greatly expanded interpretation of the Commerce Clause
So, since the South secedes, now we're all stuck with the income tax, thanks for that!
Vareb,I have often ask this question because there are those that say there was no such thing. What do y'all think?
I think you have to answer, first of all, which states. Clearly, Texas sovereignty in that it was a soveriegn nation recognized as such by other nations, including the United States. Vermont may also fall in this category in that it was an independant republic at one point (though I am unsure of international recognition). Hawaii as well (though a kingdom, not a republic). The 13 original colonies? More difficult to say. They certainly had aspects of sovereignty but they rebelled and ended the rebellion as a unity. I am undecided on that issue. As to the other states, they are creations of the Federal government out of United States territories and never were independently sovereign. Any sovereignty they have is derivative of federal sovereignty.Vareb,
To expand a bit on your original question: "When did the States lose their Sovereignty?"
1. Were the States ever sovereign?
2. When in time did they cease being sovereign?
3. Did the States surrender their sovereignty?
4. Did the States surrender all of their sovereignty?
I'll try and come back with some answers shortly.
In June of 1845, the emissary of Texas returned from Mexico with a proposed treaty that would recognize the independence of the Republic of Texas. The President of Texas, Anson Jones, then put the question to a vote: should Texas accept the treaty with Mexico and remain an independent and sovereign state, or should they accept annexation to the United States? The people of Texas voted to join the United States.I think you have to answer, first of all, which states. Clearly, Texas sovereignty in that it was a soveriegn nation recognized as such by other nations, including the United States.
The very existence of Vermont as an independent republic was denied by other colonies and states right up to the point at which it was admitted as a state. I believe New York finally gave up their claim to the place in that year, and I think New Hampshire had given it up sometime in the 1780s. The Crown courts decided against the Massachusetts claim back in the 1740s, IIRR. Vermont believes they were independent at one time. I think the rest of the world pretty much ignored them.Vermont may also fall in this category in that it was an independant republic at one point (though I am unsure of international recognition).
Hawaii we basically grabbed in a coup. Naked aggression, with the only real justification being that we beat everyone else to it. The British seem to have accepted it because they didn't want the French to grab it.Hawaii as well (though a kingdom, not a republic).
Even back then, not everyone agreed. The quote from Pinckney I put in my signature here is an example -- and Pinckney was one of the people actually writing the US Constitution.The 13 original colonies? More difficult to say. They certainly had aspects of sovereignty but they rebelled and ended the rebellion as a unity. I am undecided on that issue.
This is one of the possible arguments, and has never been resolved to my knowledge. You can say, for example, thatif KY wanted to stop being a state they would revert to their status before they became one. In that case, they would either a) go back to being a US territory or b) revert to being a part of the state of Virginia.As to the other states, they are creations of the Federal government out of United States territories and never were independently sovereign. Any sovereignty they have is derivative of federal sovereignty.
Probably earlier, in the Articles of Confederation and the formation of the United States. The Treaty of Ghent, ending the American Revolution, specifically states it is between two countries, not fourteen (and Vermont is not mentioned even as a part of the United States).So the states surrender their sovereignty? Yes. Clearly Texas, in requesting annexation surrendered many aspects of sovereignty and could no longer coin its own money, enter into its own treaties, etc. As to the colonies, I would argue that the people of the states removed the sovereignty from those states and conferred that sovereignty on the Federal government when the people of those states ratified the Constitution.
Yes, they essentially wanted to give themselves powers appropriate to govern within their own borders, and the central government powers appropriate to govern affairs between the states or relating to the rest of the world outside their nation.The states, or the people of those states, did not surrender all of the sovereignty of those states in that the United States is a federal system in which the states are sovereign up to the point where their sovereignty is overridden by the sovereignty of the federal government.
Yes, I believe that is true. Are you suggesting that their sovereignty was thus challenged or abused before the English showed up? I hadn't thought of that. Powhatan's brother Opechanough was my 12th great grandfather, so I have a passing interest in those folks. He was the dude who followed Powhatan as 'ruler' and carried out the raids on Jamestown. He was not overly impressed with John Smith.I dunno, was not Powhattan trying to bring independent villages under his Powhattan Confederation (english name, for his suzerain)
Most likely. Most tribes that existed pre-European intervention had been shoving each other around and taking and re-taking each others' territories for centuries. Each had as much soverignty as it could keep.Are you suggesting that their sovereignty was thus challenged or abused before the English showed up?
cw1865,I watch the History Channel threads (but do not post there), what's the story over there? Do the other posters simply hit 'report abuse' and your thread gets deleted?
I think somebody has been beating the state sovereignity drum over and over and over and over and over.....And....I'm right....don't worry Neil, its just a question of time before he gets picked up for tax evasion while he's screaming that he's a 'state citizen' not subject to Federal tax....:laugh2:
I see, again, that the numerous other examples of other views of state sovereignty has once again been deleted.
It is a shame, that once again, you are unable to have an open debate on this topic.
Yet even there it is obvious that the states (or rebellious colonies) had given up many of the aspects of sovereignity:The states never seemed to have full nationhood status at any time in their history, but the closest they came was under the Articles of Confederation.
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