What was Lincoln's plan for Fort Sumter if it had been allowed to be resupplied with food ?

thomas aagaard

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#61
The European monarchies did not have much respect for the idea of popular sovereignty.. where the people decide their allegiance.
And slavery was seen as wrong.
 

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#62
Davis and the CSA was the aggressor no doubt, as I had stated earlier.

And that is exactly what it is..........................Your point of view.

It has many views Elennsar..................My point of view as to what actually happened is Lincoln provoked the CSA and Davis. Davis and the CSA became the aggressors. As the aggressors Davis and the CSA lost any and all possibility of foreign recognition............Round 1 to Lincoln................By provoking the CSA and Davis into aggression, Davis and the CSA gained what they need the most.........NC, VA, AK, TN..................Round 2 to Davis.

Attempting to make Lincoln and the Union, pure as a fine driving snow, holier than thou.............Isn't true history, it's fantasy..............The Treasury of Virtue don't wash any longer.............

The why is easy.................Slavery


View attachment 82813
Respectfully,
William
Not to nit pick, but Alaska (AK) was still in Russian hands... I think you mean Arkansas (AR)
 
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#63
Back to the original question, which I've wondered about myself. What would Lincoln have done if SC had allowed Fort Sumter to be resupplied? Continued to maintain the status quo? The question of what to do about the Confederate States would have continued to be THE pressing issue of his administration, and I can't see him being able politically to allow the status quo to continue indefinitely.
 

jgoodguy

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#65
Back to the original question, which I've wondered about myself. What would Lincoln have done if SC had allowed Fort Sumter to be resupplied? Continued to maintain the status quo? The question of what to do about the Confederate States would have continued to be THE pressing issue of his administration, and I can't see him being able politically to allow the status quo to continue indefinitely.

Without an overt attack allowing Lincoln to claim war powers, I see a continuing stalemate for the near future with a gradual deterioration in the CSA nation.

The question is not what Lincoln wants to do, but what is politically possible.
 
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#66
Neither side could allow the status quo to go on indefinitely but I believe that Davis and the CSA were under more of a time crunch. Their Confederacy was pretty fragile with a significant portion of the white population at least indifferent to secession, not to mention having a pretty limited white population to begin with. They needed the Upper South and Border States fairly badly and needed them fairly quickly.

Lincoln, on the other hand, could be more deliberate. While there would come a time when he would have to assert authority, it did not need to be immediately. He could be patient, showing the South that he was not an immediate threat to slavery and allow cooler heads to prevail, returning the South to the Union.

R
 
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jgoodguy

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#67
Neither side could allow the status quo to go one indefinitely but I believe that Davis and the CSA were under more of a time crunch. Their Confederacy was pretty fragile with a significant portion of the white population at least indifferent to secession, not to mention having a pretty limited white population to begin with. They needed the Upper South and Border States fairly badly and needed them fairly quickly.

Lincoln, on the other hand, could be more deliberate. While there would come a time when he would have to assert authority, it did not need to be immediately. He could be patient, showing the South that he was not an immediate threat to slavery and allow cooler heads to prevail, returning the South to the Union.

R
I agree.
Also that return could be a State at at time.

The time factor is why Davis shot first.
 
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#68
Back to the original question, which I've wondered about myself. What would Lincoln have done if SC had allowed Fort Sumter to be resupplied? Continued to maintain the status quo? The question of what to do about the Confederate States would have continued to be THE pressing issue of his administration, and I can't see him being able politically to allow the status quo to continue indefinitely.
My speculation of what he would do next:
Continue to resupply the Fort; tell G W Lane, appointed a judge in Alabama in March, to go to work; recess appoint other judges, customs officials, postmasters, etc to fill up vacancies; ...
 
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#72
The time factor is why Davis shot first.
Can we document that as a fact? I still don't believe Davis of all people wanted a war.
My speculation of what he would do next:
Continue to resupply the Fort; tell G W Lane, appointed a judge in Alabama in March, to go to work; recess appoint other judges, customs officials, postmasters, etc to fill up vacancies; ...
Judging by how his cabinet responded when Lincoln initially sought their opinions about Sumter, the main concern was with collection of revenue and how to accomplish it given the situation in the south. If he shared their concerns, Lincoln would have been putting ships off the coast outside Southern ports and attempting to collect whatever revenue he could. It's fairly likely that at some point there would have been a military confrontation over that if it didn't happen over Sumter.
 

jgoodguy

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#73
Can we document that as a fact? I still don't believe Davis of all people wanted a war.


Judging by how his cabinet responded when Lincoln initially sought their opinions about Sumter, the main concern was with collection of revenue and how to accomplish it given the situation in the south. If he shared their concerns, Lincoln would have been putting ships off the coast outside Southern ports and attempting to collect whatever revenue he could. It's fairly likely that at some point there would have been a military confrontation over that if it didn't happen over Sumter.
We know he shot first and at the fort about to be starved out instead of the Fox Expedition. That is not a sign that Davis had a lot of time and there must be time pressures.

That kind of blockade could bring on a war with England and other European nations
 

CSA Today

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#74
We know he shot first and at the fort about to be starved out instead of the Fox Expedition. That is not a sign that Davis had a lot of time and there must be time pressures.

That kind of blockade could bring on a war with England and other European nations
It would have depended on how it was handled, Lincoln would have made the case the CS were no more than states in rebellion and not officially recognised by the European powers so his government had the right to collect import duties.
 
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#77
Can we document that as a fact? I still don't believe Davis of all people wanted a war.
Davis was quoted in 1858 as saying that if a Republican was elected President, he would "rather appeal to the God of Battles at once than to attempt to live longer in such a Union".
Davis was quote in November 1860 as saying that if a Republican was elected President, he would plant the Mississippi flag "upon the crest of battle, and gathering around me Mississippi's best and bravest, will welcome the invader to the harvest of death"
Davis was quoted in February 1861 as saying "there will be no war in our territory; it will be carried into the enemy's territory"; "We will carry war where it is easy to advance- where food for the sword and torch await our armies in densely populated cities."
Also in February 1816 he wrote "My mind has been for sometime satisfied that a peaceful solution of our difficulties was not to be anticipated"
Seems to me that he welcomed war.
 

jgoodguy

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#78
I find that highly doubtful. What basis would this give any nation for war with the US?
Union blockade
Under international law and maritime law, however, nations had the right to stop and search neutral ships in international waters if they were suspected of violating a blockade, something port closures would not allow. In an effort to avoid conflict between the United States and Britain over the searching of British merchant vessels thought to be trading with the Confederacy, the Union needed the privileges of international law that came with the declaration of a blockade.

However, by effectively declaring the Confederate States of America to be belligerents —rather than insurrectionists, who under international law were not eligible for recognition by foreign powers— Lincoln opened the way for Britain and France to recognize the Confederacy. Britain's proclamation of neutrality was consistent with the Lincoln Administration's position —that under international law the Confederates were belligerents— and helped legitimize the Confederate States of America's national right to obtain loans and buy arms from neutral nations. The British proclamation also formally gave Britain the diplomatic right to discuss openly which side, if any, to support.[3]
 
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#79
Judging by how his cabinet responded when Lincoln initially sought their opinions about Sumter, the main concern was with collection of revenue and how to accomplish it given the situation in the south.Sumter.
Since Seward is the only one whose opinion to Lincoln showed concern over the collection of revenue, writing that it was "a necessary as well as a legitimate union object", I dont see that as their main concern.
 
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#80
Davis was quoted in 1858 as saying that if a Republican was elected President, he would "rather appeal to the God of Battles at once than to attempt to live longer in such a Union".
Davis was quote in November 1860 as saying that if a Republican was elected President, he would plant the Mississippi flag "upon the crest of battle, and gathering around me Mississippi's best and bravest, will welcome the invader to the harvest of death"
Davis was quoted in February 1861 as saying "there will be no war in our territory; it will be carried into the enemy's territory"; "We will carry war where it is easy to advance- where food for the sword and torch await our armies in densely populated cities."
Also in February 1816 he wrote "My mind has been for sometime satisfied that a peaceful solution of our difficulties was not to be anticipated"
Seems to me that he welcomed war.
I don't think he welcomed it, just that he was willing to fight a war if that's what it took. If he didn't believe a peaceful solution was to "be anticipated", then what other option did he have?

Davis himself laid out the following sequence of events:
- commissioners were sent to Washington to negotiate
- Secretary of state Seward, through Judge Campbell, assured the commissioners that Sumter would be evacuated
- while this was going on, Gustavus Fox made plans to reenforce the fort, and actually visited Charleston on March 21st to see the lay of the land
- As late as April 7, the commissioners were still being led to believe that Sumter would be evacuated. "Faith as to Sumter fully kept. Wait and see"
- Davis says that the intention was for the arrival of the fleet to be a surprise, and only a storm at sea delayed it long enough for Beauregard to get instructions on what to do.

So it seems to me as if when the time came for Davis to make a decision, he felt that not only could the United States not be trusted to deal in good faith, but that there was very little time in which to choose a course of action. Ships were on the way, so there was no more time. And the Confederate commissioners believed Charleston was going to be attacked.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ndTjAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT316&lpg=PT316&dq=The+'Tribune'+of+to-day+declares+the+++++main+object+of+the+expedition+to+be+the+relief+of+Sumter,+and+++++that+a+force+will+be+landed+which+will+overcome+all+opposition.&source=bl&ots=Gec0hN9_G4&sig=koq18cPM6YzUJsLHpafmdltN7b0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1qIXlsJnOAhVKNj4KHb_0BgIQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=The 'Tribune' of to-day declares the main object of the expedition to be the relief of Sumter, and that a force will be landed which will overcome all opposition.&f=false

"Washington, _April 10, 1861_.

"General G. T. Beauregard: The 'Tribune' of to-day declares the
main object of the expedition to be the relief of Sumter, and
that a force will be landed which will overcome all opposition.


"Roman, Crawford, and Forsyth."


One does not have to believe that Davis wanted war to understand that he believed it was the only option left to him.

The "relief squadron," as with unconscious irony it was termed, was already under way for Charleston, consisting, according to their own statement, of eight vessels, carrying twenty-six guns and about fourteen hundred men, including the troops sent for reënforcement of the
garrison.

These facts became known to the Confederate Government, and it was obvious that no time was to be lost in preparing for, and if possible anticipating the impending assault.
 
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