Uniforms What type of shell jacket is this soldier wearing (early war Virginia cavalry)?

privateflemming

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It definitely doesn't seem to be a normal shell jacket I've ever seen. It has a button on the collar and what look like two pockets on each breast. I also notice on the left cuff it looks like the outline of a dark-looking trim. I also estimate 9-10 buttons on the front which seems normal.

Any ideas on what kind of jacket it is? My first assumption would be that it's some sort of pre-war militia jacket given that he has an 1851 Virginia state buckle and sword belt and what looks like other surplus weapons, but I have no idea. Any help appreciated. I made another post about this image so you can see why I'm sort of interested in it.

Here it is on the LOC and here is the highest definition link.

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colorizedflip.jpeg
 
Its hard to say but I would have to go with a Dragoon uniform as he is also holding a very early Virginia manufactured dragoon sword. Lets see what our resident uniform guru thinks paging @majorbill
 
The button collar arrangement is similar to one jacket worn by a Mississippi officer Otis Baker pictured in Echoes of Glory. Not to mention the pre-war and wartime US M1854 Mounted Services Jacket, but the two exterior breast pockets are the most unique feature to me, along with the cloth its made out of. Its a darker woolen cloth probably kersey, and actually looks like imported British Kersey to me, but that didn't see wide importation till 1863, and the style of jacket doesn't look like any depot variety anywhere in the Confederacy I know of, even Virginia.

Without knowing who he is, and his company and regiment, my supposition would be its a mid to late-war image and either his company getting several hundred yards of cloth and having these uniforms made to these specifications, or most likely him getting himself a few yards of cloth and having the uniform tailor made to his own specifications, which is VERY possible and was common enough in the Confederate armies. It does seem to fit better than some depot, and company contracted jackets.

Looking at his accoutrements, the Virginia belt plate gives me pause for an image of the possible timeline, they weren't as common by then, much less wearing a sword by an enlisted man. Photographer's props perhaps? Besides the revolver wasn't the most common in the South early war.

Either way I doubt its a pre-war militia jacket, the cloth just don't look right. But I bet @Grayrock Volunteer could give a better and more accurate analysis than me, he always sees what I miss and knows more than me.
 
Let us start by looking at the image for clues. I see 10 buttons on his jacket, does any one see a different number of buttons? I do not see button on his sleeves. He does have trim about his collar. Two pockets on the upper part of his jacket. A non regulation hat.

This would be a rather plain uniform for a pre War militia company. I know many militia companies had less fancy fatigue uniforms, but in many cases the fatigue uniforms were nicer than this. I have to wonder if this isn't a war time mounted man. If so is it early War, mid War of late War?

I am looking at the trim and button on his collar. These could indicate an early War uniform. Not always, but often as the War progressed things like branch trim and extra buttons on the collar were seen as not needed and as the War went on the uniforms tended to move to easier to make uniforms. Also how long did Virginia belt buckles last?

What do we see on his left (our left) side. Remember this image is reversed. Is this a pistol holster? Is it the tip of a carbine with some kind of box higher on his waist?
 
Let us start by looking at the image for clues. I see 10 buttons on his jacket, does any one see a different number of buttons? I do not see button on his sleeves. He does have trim about his collar. Two pockets on the upper part of his jacket. A non regulation hat.

This would be a rather plain uniform for a pre War militia company. I know many militia companies had less fancy fatigue uniforms, but in many cases the fatigue uniforms were nicer than this. I have to wonder if this isn't a war time mounted man. If so is it early War, mid War of late War?

I am looking at the trim and button on his collar. These could indicate an early War uniform. Not always, but often as the War progressed things like branch trim and extra buttons on the collar were seen as not needed and as the War went on the uniforms tended to move to easier to make uniforms. Also how long did Virginia belt buckles last?

What do we see on his left (our left) side. Remember this image is reversed. Is this a pistol holster? Is it the tip of a carbine with some kind of box higher on his waist?

If you look at the other thread I linked and read the discussion there, I believe this image is my 2nd great-grandfather who was in the 3rd Virginia Cavalry and enlisted in May 1861, but I could be wrong and some other people disagreed. Either way I do think it is almost certainly very early war and I already reversed the images I posted here. If you look at the LOC link it has the unreversed version (you can tell for sure by the buckle).
 
It definitely doesn't seem to be a normal shell jacket I've ever seen. It has a button on the collar and what look like two pockets on each breast. I also notice on the left cuff it looks like the outline of a dark-looking trim. I also estimate 9-10 buttons on the front which seems normal.

Any ideas on what kind of jacket it is? My first assumption would be that it's some sort of pre-war militia jacket given that he has an 1851 Virginia state buckle and sword belt and what looks like other surplus weapons, but I have no idea. Any help appreciated. I made another post about this image so you can see why I'm sort of interested in it.

Here it is on the LOC and here is the highest definition link.

View attachment 332412View attachment 332411
This looks to be a commutation jacket just prior to the transition, buttons appear to be cuff size.
 
Sorry, but what transition are you talking about and do you know of any other examples of one like this?

The transition would be to the Depot System, the jacket in the post shows evidence of quite a few personal tailored traits such as the outer breast pockets, high collar, which would soon be cut down for comfort. The absence of the shoulder straps or epaulettes is easily explained, since many soldiers just elected to cut them off to be used as belt loops, patching material, or just to get them out of the way.

The sword belt plate is from Gaylord and dates from 1857 to 1861 with over 4,000 delivered to VA militia units.

This picture has been around quite a while and one caption by noted ACW historian and buckle expert Steve Mullinax denotes a "homespun" uniform, of CS manufacture.
 
I would say early war Virginia Cavalry trooper. During that early war commutation period it was common that groups, companies or even whole regiments would have a local tailor or merchant make their uniforms. These would be a quite wide array of styles, cuts and trim features, depending on the materials available and the whim of who placed the respective order. Some are found to be quite fancy, others quite plain, with or without external pockets, shoulder tabs, or trimmings. Each respective company within a single given regiment may each have worn something entirely different. The commutation era was a stop gap measure whereas units uniformed themselves from local sources while the Quartermaster-Depot system was being created. Thereafter most later depot issued gear roughly followed a more standardized pattern, characteristics, and features much more easier to better identify.

As mentioned by @Package4, These Va State sword belt plates were available and commonly issued to state mounted troops in that early war time frame. Heres another subject wearing the same type of buckle. This particular subject below also has an Adams revolver stuck in his belt, which Virginia also had purchased a fair quantity of just before the war.
adamsrevolver4.jpg
 
I would say early war Virginia Cavalry trooper. During that early war commutation period it was common that groups, companies or even whole regiments would have a local tailor or merchant make their uniforms. These would be a quite wide array of styles, cuts and trim features, depending on the materials available and the whim of who placed the respective order. Some are found to be quite fancy, others quite plain, with or without external pockets, shoulder tabs, or trimmings. Each respective company within a single given regiment may each have worn something entirely different. The commutation era was a stop gap measure whereas units uniformed themselves from local sources while the Quartermaster-Depot system was being created. Thereafter most later depot issued gear roughly followed a more standardized pattern, characteristics, and features much more easier to better identify.

As mentioned by @Package4, These Va State sword belt plates were available and commonly issued to state mounted troops in that early war time frame. Heres another subject wearing the same type of buckle. This particular subject below also has an Adams revolver stuck in his belt, which Virginia also had purchased a fair quantity of just before the war.
View attachment 332787


It may also be early attempt to create a gray version of the Union cavalry jacket. I saw some pictures, the first one that comes to mind is private J.O. Sheppard Co F, 6th South Carolina Cavalry:
View attachment 332900

Thanks for the info. This makes a lot of sense.
 
In the original image in post #1 it almost looks like the same color of trim that goes around the collar also goes down the front of the jacket.The trim photographed almost the same color as the jacket but I think I can see it going down the front of the jacket.
 
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