What is the Big Fuss About Black Confederate Soldiers?

Viper21

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Its not just the existence of Black Southern Loyalists (aka Black Confederates, or Confederates of Color) but the fact that there are today some African Americans who are proud of the service of their ancestors that causes so much fright from those opposed to their existence.
Many of these people are folks who want you to believe that the Southern Confederacy was the equivalent of folks who need to be unpersoned and that the Confederate soldier deserves no honor as an American veteran, or as a human being. To people like that anyone who does not fit into their narrative is a threat, and nothing frightens someone more than having their "religion" (aka their political and social views connected to how they define the memory of the War Between The States) challenged by facts that run counter to the narrative.
Great observation ! I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Generally speaking, my experience with this subject, ends up at the same conclusion.
 

Viper21

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How about we refrain from putting flags or any nationalistic stuff on anyone's grave unless they asked for it?
Which is exactly where it's heading. In my cynical mind, I believe that has been the goal all along. Many folks are just as negative towards Old Glory, as they are CSA flags. Something I never would've thought possible. I find it shocking actually.

Do you consider it "grave desecration" to put a US flag on a US Veteran's grave..?

Keeping in mind that most folks, especially those who died many years ago, never even gave this type of stuff a thought. Let alone a comment, or put something in writing about it.
 

DanSBHawk

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Which is exactly where it's heading. In my cynical mind, I believe that has been the goal all along. Many folks are just as negative towards Old Glory, as they are CSA flags. Something I never would've thought possible. I find it shocking actually.

Do you consider it "grave desecration" to put a US flag on a US Veteran's grave..?

Keeping in mind that most folks, especially those who died many years ago, never even gave this type of stuff a thought. Let alone a comment, or put something in writing about it.
I've seen the cast metal markers on graves around here that say US Veteran or similar. They seem appropriate. Most veterans can provide input before they die, as to what is on their stone and on their grave.

I think the service members that are killed in action should have the full ceremony, with the flag that is folded.

Regarding the US flag on veterans graves, at least the veterans were actually recognized as US citizens. At least the vast majority. Slaves did not enjoy that same status or dignity in the US.
 

Andersonh1

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Which is exactly where it's heading. In my cynical mind, I believe that has been the goal all along. Many folks are just as negative towards Old Glory, as they are CSA flags. Something I never would've thought possible. I find it shocking actually.

Your comment brings to mind our local situation. We used to put CS battle flags on Confederate veterans' graves in Springwood cemetery in downtown Greenville. The board in charge of the cemetery could not single out Confederate flags and ban them due to 1st amendment concerns, so they have banned ALL flags, including the US flag, except around Memorial and Veterans day.

Think about that: they were so intent on finding a way to keep Confederate flags off the graves, they were willing to ban United States flags.
 

Viper21

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I've seen the cast metal markers on graves around here that say US Veteran or similar. They seem appropriate. Most veterans can provide input before they die, as to what is on their stone and on their grave.

I think the service members that are killed in action should have the full ceremony, with the flag that is folded.

Regarding the US flag on veterans graves, at least the veterans were actually recognized as US citizens. At least the vast majority. Slaves did not enjoy that same status or dignity in the US.
Didn't really answer my question. In the context of this discussion, I'm not talking about recent veterans graves. Do you consider it grave desecration to put a US Flag on a US Civil War Veterans grave..?

Many of these men (just like CS Veterans), were forced into service against their will. We KNOW, some Black folks were forced into the USCT's at the point of a bayonet. They were not given citizenship until after the war was over btw.
 

DanSBHawk

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Didn't really answer my question. In the context of this discussion, I'm not talking about recent veterans graves. Do you consider it grave desecration to put a US Flag on a US Civil War Veterans grave..?

Many of these men (just like CS Veterans), were forced into service against their will. We KNOW, some Black folks were forced into the USCT's at the point of a bayonet. They were not given citizenship until after the war was over btw.
I think that all US veterans, even if they're conscripted, know that they are fighting for a free, if sometimes imperfect, country.

Frederick Douglass and the USCT's knew the war was over more than preserving the Union. Even if some were conscripted, they knew they were fighting for their own civil rights as well.

I don't have a problem with the US flag on US veterans graves. Although sometimes the flag displays and flag-waving can become too much. Flag clothing and hats and bumper stickers and whatever. It can seem gaudy and fake.
 

Viper21

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I think that all US veterans, even if they're conscripted, know that they are fighting for a free, if sometimes imperfect, country.

Frederick Douglass and the USCT's knew the war was over more than preserving the Union. Even if some were conscripted, they knew they were fighting for their own civil rights as well.

I don't have a problem with the US flag on US veterans graves. Although sometimes the flag displays and flag-waving can become too much. Flag clothing and hats and bumper stickers and whatever. It can seem gaudy and fake.
Let me get this straight. I don't want to misrepresent your position.

So, in your opinion, it is grave desecration, to put a Confederate flag, on the grave of a man who was in service of the CS military, if we don't know their personal thoughts, or feelings on that subject. However, you have no problem with putting a US flag, on the grave of a US Veteran (or USCT Veteran), when we don't know their personal thoughts or feelings on the subject..?
 

DanSBHawk

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Let me get this straight. I don't want to misrepresent your position.

So, in your opinion, it is grave desecration, to put a Confederate flag, on the grave of a man who was in service of the CS military, if we don't know their personal thoughts, or feelings on that subject. However, you have no problem with putting a US flag, on the grave of a US Veteran (or USCT Veteran), when we don't know their personal thoughts or feelings on the subject..?
No, that is not what I said at all. It is a grave desecration to put the confederate flag on the grave of a slave that was forced to aid the confederacy. Particularly when the confederacy existed to ensure that slave's continued enslavement. It's a slap in the face to that dead slave. A demeaning, dehumanizing, insult.

Any US veteran, of any race, whether volunteered or conscripted, knows that he's fighting for a country which at least aspires to a certain ideal of freedom and equality, even if it often falls short of the ideal.

To a US veteran, the US flag stands for something noble. To a slave, the CS flag stands for something ugly.
 

Viper21

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No, that is not what I said at all. It is a grave desecration to put the confederate flag on the grave of a slave that was forced to aid the confederacy. Particularly when the confederacy existed to ensure that slave's continued enslavement. It's a slap in the face to that dead slave. A demeaning, dehumanizing, insult.

Any US veteran, of any race, whether volunteered or conscripted, knows that he's fighting for a country which at least aspires to a certain ideal of freedom and equality, even if it often falls short of the ideal.

The US flag stands for something noble. The CS flag stands for something ugly.
Sounds like a double standard to me. There's plenty of USCT's who were forced by bayonet into the USCT's. Regardless of the assumptions that a modern person makes, we don't know these people's feelings, or thoughts on the subject. Or if they would have wanted a US flag on their grave. <--- according to your previous post:
The one thing that bothers me about the whole issue is when heritage groups start decorating the graves of slaves with confederate stuff, without knowing what the dead slave would have wanted. I don't care if the descendants agree to it. Unless they know for sure that the dead person would have wanted it, then it is a desecration of a grave in my opinion, and shame on both the heritage groups and the descendants.
That's why I asked. Apparently, this standard ^ doesn't apply both ways..?
 

DanSBHawk

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Sounds like a double standard to me. There's plenty of USCT's who were forced by bayonet into the USCT's. Regardless of the assumptions that a modern person makes, we don't know these people's feelings, or thoughts on the subject. Or if they would have wanted a US flag on their grave. <--- according to your previous post:

That's why I asked. Apparently, this standard ^ doesn't apply both ways..?
I don't think it's a double-standard because I don't consider the two flags as being an equal standard. And the status of being a slave is not equal to that of being a free man who is conscripted.

But yes, I take your point that there are probably dead US veterans that did not make it clear whether or not they wanted a US flag on their grave, and in fact would have objected.
 

lurid

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What about those forced to serve in the USCT? Do we know what they want?

I was thinking more on this than anything else. I just have a hard time believing that those one's that were forced in were combat troops, or in infantry. I would have been totally reluctant to arm slaves.
 

C.W. Roden

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I first encountered the myth of black confederates from a neo-confederate article I came across on the internet. This article attempted to use black confederates as proof that the war wasn't primarily about slavery. From what I've been able to track down neo-confederates started this myth in order to further their agenda.

Personally I like the way American Battlefield Trust sums up the black confederate myth;

"The modern myth of black Confederate soldiers is akin to a conspiracy theory—shoddy analysis has been presented, repeated, amplified, and twisted to such an extent that utterly baseless claims of as many as 80,000 black soldiers fighting for the Confederacy (which would roughly equal the size of Lee’s army at Gettysburg) have even made their way into classroom textbooks. It is right to study, discover, and share facts about the complex lives of 19th century black Americans. It is wrong to exaggerate, obfuscate, and ignore those facts in order to suit 21st century opinions."

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/black-confederates-truth-and-legend
Black Confederate Denial is the myth buddy. Its historical negationism at its worst.
I would recommend this article, critically acclaimed by a best selling author, and (as of this date) not refuted by any of the so-called "experts" on Black Confederate denial.
http://southernfriedcommonsense.blogspot.com/2019/04/busting-myth-of-black-confederate-denial.html
 

DanSBHawk

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Black Confederate Denial is the myth buddy. Its historical negationism at its worst.
I would recommend this article, critically acclaimed by a best selling author, and (as of this date) not refuted by any of the so-called "experts" on Black Confederate denial.
http://southernfriedcommonsense.blogspot.com/2019/04/busting-myth-of-black-confederate-denial.html
I've read the article, and found the name-calling and the straw men unconvincing.

The lack of refutation may be due to a lack of interest by the "experts."
 
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