What If... the south had been allowed to secede peacefully

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JonnyReb_In_MI

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And therein lies the problem, regret at living in a vast future vice living in a backward, slaveholding nation, frozen in the past.

The Confederacy and it's ideals are exactly where they should be.

On the ash heap of history as one of America's worst ideas.
You see the "what if" Confederacy of today as being exactly the same as it actually was forever? Has history taught you nothing???

I mean, if we're both being truthful, neither of us know what might have been had the Confederacy won, but I don't picture slavery lasting much longer in those states after the war. I also picture a peaceful emancipation process which would have positive ramifications for race relations for generations.

If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully from the start, I could even see the South reunifying with the North at some point and the two being stronger, more cohesive together than we can possibly envision now.

There are other positives I envision from either a peaceful separation from the Union or an overall Confederate victory in the war, but that actually does go into modern politics...
Edited.
 

major bill

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You see the "what if" Confederacy of today as being exactly the same as it actually was forever? Has history taught you nothing???

I mean, if we're both being truthful, neither of us know what might have been had the Confederacy won, but I don't picture slavery lasting much longer in those states after the war. I also picture a peaceful emancipation process which would have positive ramifications for race relations for generations.

If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully from the start, I could even see the South reunifying with the North at some point and the two being stronger, more cohesive together than we can possibly envision now. But exactly when slavery might have ended in an independent Confederacy does not change why the

There are other positives I envision from either a peaceful separation from the Union or an overall Confederate victory in the war, but that actually does go into modern politics...
I see slavery last for 75 to 100 years in a independent Confederacy. But as stated no one can know for sure, it may have lasted less years or even more years.

However when slavery might have ended in an independent Confederacy would not change why the Slave States seceded.
 

WJC

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You see the "what if" Confederacy of today as being exactly the same as it actually was forever? Has history taught you nothing???

I mean, if we're both being truthful, neither of us know what might have been had the Confederacy won, but I don't picture slavery lasting much longer in those states after the war. I also picture a peaceful emancipation process which would have positive ramifications for race relations for generations.

If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully from the start, I could even see the South reunifying with the North at some point and the two being stronger, more cohesive together than we can possibly envision now.

There are other positives I envision from either a peaceful separation from the Union or an overall Confederate victory in the war, but that actually does go into modern politics...
I disagree on all points.
 
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unionblue

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You see the "what if" Confederacy of today as being exactly the same as it actually was forever? Has history taught you nothing???

History has taught me what the Confederacy was.

I mean, if we're both being truthful, neither of us know what might have been had the Confederacy won, but I don't picture slavery lasting much longer in those states after the war. I also picture a peaceful emancipation process which would have positive ramifications for race relations for generations.

It's apparent the history of the Confederacy, short-lived as it deserved, has taught you nothing, an attempt to freeze time while preserving and even expanding slavery.

If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully from the start, I could even see the South reunifying with the North at some point and the two being stronger, more cohesive together than we can possibly envision now.

Your opinion is noted. History shows differently.

There are other positives I envision from either a peaceful separation from the Union or an overall Confederate victory in the war, but that actually does go into modern politics...
Yes, such fantasies usually do involve a personal dislike of current politics.
 
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leftyhunter

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[DISCLAIMER: I had absolutely no part in creating this new thread; I may or may not choose to participate in the discussion that follows.]



You see the "what if" Confederacy of today as being exactly the same as it actually was forever? Has history taught you nothing???

I mean, if we're both being truthful, neither of us know what might have been had the Confederacy won, but I don't picture slavery lasting much longer in those states after the war. I also picture a peaceful emancipation process which would have positive ramifications for race relations for generations.

If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully from the start, I could even see the South reunifying with the North at some point and the two being stronger, more cohesive together than we can possibly envision now.

There are other positives I envision from either a peaceful separation from the Union or an overall Confederate victory in the war, but that actually does go into modern politics...
Modern politics edited

a peaceful multi racial independent Confederate nation seems a bit far fetched.
Leftyhunter
 
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wausaubob

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Nothing that has happened in the last 157 years suggests that there was any probability that these two belligerents could have peacefully co-existed for 12 months. Both sections have repeatedly found causes to fight for and have readily engaged in arm combat for a fantastic variety of reasons. Their history before 1861 was a war history and their history after 1861 was a war history.
There is a -0-% probability that free farmers and wage laborers were going to peacefully coexist with slavery.
And there is only a minor possibility that the British were not going to find alternative sources for cotton in India and Egypt within 3 years of 1860.
But in "what if" land everything is free. Be imaginative.
 
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Why are you so confident that it would have been all peaceful? I very much doubt that two nations would have either coexisted or rejoined at all quickly, if by now at all. As has already been said the south has had an ugly history with race relations even into the 20th century, and I very much doubt this is a result of being forced to stay in a union, so why assume that slavery would be short lived when (to some, arguably) a major reason for the war being started was slavery?
 

leftyhunter

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You see the "what if" Confederacy of today as being exactly the same as it actually was forever? Has history taught you nothing???

I mean, if we're both being truthful, neither of us know what might have been had the Confederacy won, but I don't picture slavery lasting much longer in those states after the war. I also picture a peaceful emancipation process which would have positive ramifications for race relations for generations.

If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully from the start, I could even see the South reunifying with the North at some point and the two being stronger, more cohesive together than we can possibly envision now.

There are other positives I envision from either a peaceful separation from the Union or an overall Confederate victory in the war, but that actually does go into modern politics... Edited.
Why would slavery end by the 1870s? Slavery has existed and continues to thrive even to this day in various nations.
Slavery is by no means a bar to international recognition as history has repeatedly shown.
Therefore no need to end slavery.
Leftyhunter
 

BlueandGrayl

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In all honesty, I am doubtful the CSA would have been allowed to secede peacefully there'd be even less states (only Deep South states) there and the Upper South probably wouldn't secede. Even if the CSA at the moment decided not to bomb Fort Sumter and the Union didn't attack another event would have taken its place something like the Baltimore Riots with Union soldiers attacking, harassing and possibly killing Baltimore protestors enough to potentially outrage the Upper South states (Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, and possibly Kentucky and Missouri given that well the Baltimore riots took place in the border state of Maryland) to secede.
 
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O. A. Williams

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You see the "what if" Confederacy of today as being exactly the same as it actually was forever? Has history taught you nothing???

I mean, if we're both being truthful, neither of us know what might have been had the Confederacy won, but I don't picture slavery lasting much longer in those states after the war. I also picture a peaceful emancipation process which would have positive ramifications for race relations for generations.

If the south had been allowed to secede peacefully from the start, I could even see the South reunifying with the North at some point and the two being stronger, more cohesive together than we can possibly envision now.

There are other positives I envision from either a peaceful separation from the Union or an overall Confederate victory in the war, but that actually does go into modern politics...Edited.
:rofl:
The land would have become another warring Europe. There would not have been peace. Impossible. Lincoln knew it, too.
The south itself would have had states secede and quarrel and if a war didnt happen with the union. It would have imploded.
The south made a poor decision in regards to the formation of the confederacy.
 

WJC

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With two separate countries, how would European powers react? Would they be considered easy prey for intervention or even take over?
Recall that in October 1861, Spain, Britain, and France jointly occupied parts of eastern Mexico because of unpaid debts. The French remained and attempted to establish a New World empire.
Would they have befriended the new CSA or intervened in their affairs? Or tried to make them part of their New World empire?
 
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With two separate countries, how would European powers react? Would they be considered easy prey for intervention or even take over?
Recall that in October 1861, Spain, Britain, and France jointly occupied parts of eastern Mexico because of unpaid debts. The French remained and attempted to establish a New World empire.
Would they have befriended the new CSA or intervened in their affairs? Or tried to make them part of their New World empire?
The French I think, under Napoleon the 3rd would probably very much want to take as much land from the U.S. (like they did in Mexico) as they could if given the opportunity. I do wonder what would have happened had the Mexicans not held them off as long as they did.
 

BlueandGrayl

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There would not have been a Civil War.
No, even if in the unlikely chance the South does peacefully secede a war is likely to come a few years down the line. As I said even if the CSA (which was still comprised of the Deep South states: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas prior to Fort Sumter) for a moment decided not to bomb Fort Sumter and the Union doesn't retaliate that would mean another event would have taken its place and something like the Baltimore Riots could still happen thus causing the secession of the Upper South states (Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, and possibly Missouri and Kentucky given that the Baltimore riots occured in the border state of Maryland) from the Union and into the Confederacy.
 
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I see slavery last for 75 to 100 years in a independent Confederacy. But as stated no one can know for sure, it may have lasted less years or even more years.

However when slavery might have ended in an independent Confederacy would not change why the Slave States seceded.
nope i see a third world country that begs to be reintegrated by the us in what was the cs. the reason for that is that a couple of british entrepreneurs would set up cotton production and then start a 'do not buy the slavers' cotton' campaign in about 1885 (at the latest). with that dixieland is finished. it becomes a hellhole. infighting ensues. a failed slavers' republic. if they are lucky the us don't wait to be invited back. but all along the european big powers are fanning the flames. in the end a lot more people are dead and it takes 200 years to resettle and to redevelop the lawless south.

... and if it still takes place we win the first world war -> there is no second
 
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The French I think, under Napoleon the 3rd would probably very much want to take as much land from the U.S. (like they did in Mexico) as they could if given the opportunity. I do wonder what would have happened had the Mexicans not held them off as long as they did.
unless that prevailing south prevents the war of 1870/71 (i see no reason how that could be possible) i see no chance for that
 
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if the us let them go in peace the us is finished and scattered within 25 years

if they cs win their independence on the battlefield it has to be by a decisive blow early on. from the moment the us war 'industry' is running the cs can't win against that industry's output and the manpower the us can draw from. in this case the rest-us will either be scattered by infighting about who's to blame or driven by revenge. for obvious reasons (as stated above) the cs can't win a second war.

either way the us/cs are not a mayor player for the next 100 years and do not take part in any 'european war' in the forseable future. -> we'd live in totally different world and most likely none of us even exists.
 

uaskme

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Slavery ended because of War, not from a Republican Threat. No evidence Slavery would of ended sooner under a Republican President, who vowed not to touch it where it was. Yankee Slavery ended after a 50 years of gradual Emancipation. Lincoln was looking at a 100 year timeline. Yankees human rights abuses were as bad as Southerners.

The War cost maybe 8 Billion Dollars and Millions of Lives. This Expenditure put to other use would of had a huge impact on the Country.

England had fought 2 wars here and lost. France’s holding in America were worthless without Santa Domingo. Spanish were too weak to be a threat. Euros were too busy fighting each outer.

No evidence the South could not of been economically independent after a period of time. It’s economy was growing. It was able to fight the Worlds fastest growing economy for 4 years. If it could do that, no evidence it couldn’t reject a foreign power.
 
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CSA Today

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nope i see a third world country that begs to be reintegrated by the us in what was the cs. the reason for that is that a couple of british entrepreneurs would set up cotton production and then start a 'do not buy the slavers' cotton' campaign in about 1885 (at the latest). with that dixieland is finished. it becomes a hellhole. infighting ensues. a failed slavers' republic. if they are lucky the us don't wait to be invited back. but all along the european big powers are fanning the flames. in the end a lot more people are dead and it takes 200 years to resettle and to redevelop the lawless south.

... and if it still takes place we win the first world war -> there is no second
You see the CS begging to be reintegrated into a country that had lost a war to it despite its much larger population and greater industrial capacity? If there was going to be a “sick chicken” on the North American continent after that display of weakness it would have been the US.
 
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You see the CS begging to be reintegrated into a country that had lost a war to it despite its much larger population and greater industrial capacity? If there was going to be a “sick chicken” on the North American continent after that display of weakness it would have been the US.
you seem to have missed my reasoning why dixie is done for. nothing to do with who won the war.
 
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