What If The South Had Armed The Blacks Per Clebernes Request, And, Promised Freedom At End Of War?

leftyhunter

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Slave soldiers themselves aren't unknown, the Janisarries and Mamluks come to mind. But the protection of slavery wasn't the purpose of the governments they served and slavery in their societies wasn't race based. And those soldiers were given a status above that of the general population and they could gain great power, especially in the case of Mamluks.
My example is a bit different.
Leftyhunter
 

Generic Username

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Even by early 1864 it's far to late for black Confedrate soldiers to make a difference. The Confedrate Army already was suffering from severe losses and didn't have the strength to mount a significant offensive operation. The Naval blockade was always getting tighter.
If after the Firing on Ft Sumter the Confedracy renounced slavery and granted full and complete citizenship to all Southeners then most likely the Confedracy could if enlisted a large amount of soldiers of color. Of then why would the Confedracy seceede in the first place?
Leftyhunter

Give Lee 15,000 more men for the Overland Campaign and either Washington falls or Grant is forced to give up the campaign. That'll win the war for them; Northern morale was already to the breaking point and either would be fatal.
 
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Not Confedrate states they wouldn't give up slavery on their own.
Leftyhunter
And? Again they hadn't for almost 100 years...it didn't change national policy.....just as some states had volunterily gave it up.....and it didn't change national policy.

Up to to the 13th passing there was little reason to assume it was some certainty, certainly not after the first vote on the 13th went down in defeat.
 

leftyhunter

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Give Lee 15,000 more men for the Overland Campaign and either Washington falls or Grant is forced to give up the campaign. That'll win the war for them; Northern morale was already to the breaking point and either would be fatal.
We can't know a hypothetical. As I mentioned the concept of using people of color as soldiers in a European Army was far from new and goes back at least as far as 1775 with Lord Dunsmore incorporating black soldiers into the British Army. The Confedracy could of incoporated black soldiers as early as 1861 but choose not to. We can't know how well a large group of black Confedrate soldiers would fight. All we know is what one Confedrate veteran wrote about Paynsville, Virginia decades latter where black Confedrate soldiers quickly surrendered.
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Generic Username

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We can't know a hypothetical. As I mentioned the concept of using people of color as soldiers in a European Army was far from new and goes back at least as far as 1775 with Lord Dunsmore incorporating black soldiers into the British Army. The Confedracy could of incoporated black soldiers as early as 1861 but choose not to. We can't know how well a large group of black Confedrate soldiers would fight. All we know is what one Confedrate veteran wrote about Paynsville, Virginia decades latter where black Confedrate soldiers quickly surrendered.
Leftyhunter

We can't know for sure, but given this was originally in the "What If" section, we can make an well-reasoned estimation based on the available evidence. Put an additional 15,000 men in Lee's trenches at Petersburg in June of 1864, and he can reasonably detach Early to attack Washington with 30,000 men; he'll either take the city or Grant will be forced to detach so much of his own strength that the siege will fail.
 

leftyhunter

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We can't know for sure, but given this was originally in the "What If" section, we can make an well-reasoned estimation based on the available evidence. Put an additional 15,000 men in Lee's trenches at Petersburg in June of 1864, and he can reasonably detach Early to attack Washington with 30,000 men; he'll either take the city or Grant will be forced to detach so much of his own strength that the siege will fail.
True but we don't know how loyal and effective black Confedrate soldiers would be since we have very little evidence of their actual use.
We only know how other white dominated societies that practiced segregation used their people of color in military service and their actual performance.
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Generic Username

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True but we don't know how loyal and effective black Confedrate soldiers would be since we have very little evidence of their actual use.
We only know how other white dominated societies that practiced segregation used their people of color in military service and their actual performance.
Leftyhunter

True; it's why I'm assuming Lee can only use them in the trenches, and thus on the defensive. It still frees up enough of his White soldiers to make a much, much stronger Early raid, however.
 

leftyhunter

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True; it's why I'm assuming Lee can only use them in the trenches, and thus on the defensive. It still frees up enough of his White soldiers to make a much, much stronger Early raid, however.
Perhaps. All we know from History is different segregated armies preform differently based on various circumstances.
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Generic Username

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Perhaps. All we know from History is different segregated armies preform differently based on various circumstances.
Leftyhunter

One thing of note: the Confederate planning for recruitment did not call for segregated units. Odd as it may sound to us, they were going to do integrated units unlike the Union Army with the USCT. This was in line with the existing Confederate practice of using replacements to fill out existing units, rather than raising new ones whole cloth, so to speak.
 

leftyhunter

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One thing of note: the Confederate planning for recruitment did not call for segregated units. Odd as it may sound to us, they were going to do integrated units unlike the Union Army with the USCT. This was in line with the existing Confederate practice of using replacements to fill out existing units, rather than raising new ones whole cloth, so to speak.
That would be very interesting if that occurred although the Confedrate Veteran who observed the use of black Confederate soldiers referenced a segregated unit. Intergrated armies were nothing new has South American countries such has Columbia , Venezuela and Brazil had a substantial population of people of African decent and or mixed African/European/Indigenous heritage. Of course the Brazilian Navy had the Revolt of the Lash so not always Kumbya.
How well Southern white and black soldiers would of gotten along is pure conjecture. We only can document how well they got along in the modern era.
Leftyhunter
 

Irishtom29

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That'll win the war for them; Northern morale was already to the breaking point and either would be fatal.

I think that assertion is nonsense.

Also, your fantasy depends on everything else falling into place as it actually did, other than the outcome. Had the rebellion actually raised a significant number of Black troops there would've been a Federal response and events would've unfolded differently.
 

Generic Username

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I think that assertion is nonsense.

Also, your fantasy depends on everything else falling into place as it actually did, other than the outcome. Had the rebellion actually raised a significant number of Black troops there would've been a Federal response and events would've unfolded differently.

It comes from none other than James McPherson, in his review of Grant and Lee: Victorious American and Vanquished Virginian, The Journal of Southern History, AUGUST 2009, Vol. 75, No. 3 (AUGUST 2009), pp. 814-816

Culminating a year in which the Army of Northern Virginia suffered almost as many combat casualties as the number of men on its rolls when Lee took command, the losses at Gettysburg "made his ultimate military defeat inevitable" (p. 130). This assertion seems almost to write off the last twenty-one months of the war, during which the heavy casualties endured by the Army of the Potomac from May to July 1864 almost caused the North to throw in the towel. In the end it was William T. Sherman's capture of Atlanta and Philip H. Sheridan's Shenandoah Valley campaign not Lee's shortcomings that reversed this momentum and set the stage for Appomattox.​

There is also the fact that between July 1863 and December 1864, 161,224 men failed to report to service under the draft. See also the Battle of Fort Fizzle in Ohio in 1863, the Detroit Race Riots of 1863, the Charleston Riot in March of 1864 in Illinois, the Fishing Creek Confederacy in Pennsylvania from July to November of 1864 and the well known New York Draft Riots of 1863. Just for fun, let's model what the Overland would've looked like with Lee at 75,000. Thanks to Saphroneth for the CEVs!

Wilderness
Alternate strength ratio: 102,000/75,000 = 1.36
Expected casualty ratio: 1.85 (1.26 squared)
CEV: 0.22
Alternate casualty ratio: 1.85*0.22 = 0.41

Fix for 11,000 Confederate losses: 29,000 Federal losses

Spotslyvania Court House
Alternate strength ratio: 90,000/64,000 = 1.41
Expected casualty ratio: 1.99
CEV: 0.39
Alternate casualty ratio: 1.99*0.39 = 0.78

Fix for 12,000 Confederate losses: 15,000 Federal losses

Cold Harbor
Alternate strength ratio: 100,000/67,000 = 1.49
Expected casualty ratio: 2.2
CEV: 0.09
Alternate casualty ratio: 2.2*0.09 = 0.2

Fix for 5,000 Confederate losses: 25,000 Federal losses

End Casualties: 28,000 Confederate to 69,000 Federal
Ending strength: Lee finishes out with 77,000 men to Grant's 75,000

As I said, the Overland wouldn't have been possible if Lee was at his "normal" strength. At the end, Lee can go on the offensive, as he did at the Seven Days, or he can hold Grant with 40,000 men and send 35,000 North to take Washington City. The only alternative for Grant is to refuse to give battle and keep maneuvering to the Right after the Wilderness; that only works until he gets next to the James and there he must either attempt to pierce the Confederate lines (Failed at Cold Harbor) or take the last available movement across the James. Problem there needs no further pointing out then what happened in the Second Battle of Petersburg historically. Thereafter, again, Lee holds Grant with 50,000 men and sends 20,000 men to raid/burn Washington.
 

jcaesar

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Armed slaves were the nightmare from the inner circle hades that slave-holders visited in their sleep every night & woke them in the dark in fear for their lives. Journals, letters, panic, & violent over reaction to even a rumor of armed slaves loose in the neighborhood by slave-holders should color any proposed large scale arming of the enslaved population.

There was a article I read on the Virginia's legislatures' long deliberations on freeing and conscripting the slaves and what they believed it would cause. Well you can read some of that below.

5.jpg


The Virginia Decision to Use Negro Soldiers in the Civil War, 1864-1865 on JSTOR
 
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Rhea Cole

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25th Corps HQ flag.jpeg


When the infantry, artillery & cavalry of the United States Colored Troops in the 25th Corps marched into Richmond & began to put out the fires started by the retreating CSA government, all the questions about arming black men became moot. What slaves would have done had they been drafted into the CSA army is shown by the large number of self-liberated men that were in the ranks of the 25th.
As to how slaves drafted into the ranks of the CSA army would have been treated, self-liberated slaves that surrendered to CS soldiers from day one of the war were murdered in cold blood.
Of course, when the USCT troops had enough of that kind of thing, they returned the favor & took no prisoners, which informs what drafted slaves would have done with their CSA issued muskets given the chance.
The 200,000 (+/-) USCT & untold number of self-liberated people who facilitated their liberation should be all the evidence anyone needs to know on this subject.
Edited.
 
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19thGeorgia

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would it have lengthed the war by two years? maybe a year? or would it have ignited an insurrection?
All the blacks that were armed in defense of the South- Native Guards, Creole Guards, Turner's battalion, the Hospital battalion, etc -did their duty - whatever they were called on to do. There were no mutinies - that cannot be said for the USCT.

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