What if Spain supported or helped the Confedercy?

major bill

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Today I read that when Lincoln appointed Carl Schurz as minister to Spain in 1861 he convinced Spain not to support the Confedercy. I guess this thread might fall under the what if category but I am in hopes that it is more of a practical question.

To start, was there any real chance that Spain would have supported the Confedercy? I am not sure there was any plus side to Spain for doing so. Did Spain need cotton? Perhaps if Spain would have recognized the Confedercy, other European nations would have followed Spain's lead. In return an independent Confederate States of America would then support Spanish interests in the Americas.

But on a more practical side, what would Spanish support for the Confedercy involve? Spain did have an army and navy but had commitments in other parts of the world, so I am not sure how much military support Spain could offer. Could the Spanish navy have made a difference? The Spanish navy probably could have disrupted Union shipping. I am not sure any army units Spain could spare to send to the South would have greatly changed the outcome of the war. How powerful and how efficient was the Spanish army in 1861?

I guess Spain could have provided monetary support. How much money Spain would/could provide is open to question. As is how much that money would have helped the Confedercy.

Still one would think that the Confedercy would have appreciated any international support. But the cost of Spanish support may well have came at a great cost to the Confedercy. I am not sure Great Britain or France would have been happy with increased Spanish influence in the Americas and to be honest the Confedercy needed the support of Great Britain and France more than any aid Spain could provide
 
To start, was there any real chance that Spain would have supported the Confedercy? Perhaps if Spain would have recognized the Confedercy, other European nations would have followed Spain's lead. In return an independent Confederate States of America would then support Spanish interests in the Americas.

There was no real chance that Spain would support the Confederacy, or that it had the available resources to do so. The Spanish government was suffering from internal turmoil between the liberals and the conservatives and the military was involved in campaigns in north Africa, Santo Domingo, and Asia. Spain still had a significant colonial empire. What Spain did do:

As part of its recognition of the blockade the British government had issued an order on 1 June 1861 forbidding British and Imperial port authorities from admitting prizes seized by Confederate privateers. Her Most Catholic Majesty Queen Isabella II of Spain followed suit on 17 June. These actions by Great Britain and Spain cut the legs out from under Confederate privateering, served to protect Federal shipping, and was consistent with Great Britain’s and Spain’s international status as signatories to the Declaration of Paris. This was consistent with Spain following Britain and France's lead rather than by any persuasion by Carl Schurz. Prior to the receipt of Queen Isabella’s decree in Cuba, seven prizes from the Confederate commerce raider CSS Sumter had been sent into the Cuban port of Cienfuegos. Consistent with the Declaration of Paris the Spanish colonial authorities freed all seven crews, held six of the ships pending a decision by the Spanish government regarding their disposition, and ordered one to leave port. These decisions by the British and Spanish governments forced Confederate commerce raiders to either destroy or ransom Federal commercial shipping they captured since it made it extremely difficult to find a foreign port where they could find a prize court which would accept a Confederate prize for legal action.

Spanish regulations for the customs houses in Cuba required that upon arrival the captains and supercargoes of Spanish and foreign ships provide the customs boat with a manifest certified by a Spanish consul. The regulations specified that “All stores, ammunition, arms, tools, instruments and all other ships utensils must be manifested.” Goods not properly manifested within 12 hours of arrival were subject to confiscation. No goods could be discharged “without the permission of the Collector and knowledge of the Commander of the Customhouse officers.” Thus, Spanish Customs officials in Havana had specific knowledge of the war materiel being brought into Cuba for transhipment to or sale to the Confederates.

Incident to Queen Isabella II’s neutrality decree the Spanish Intendent General in Cuba ordered on 27 August 1861 that ships bearing “the flag of the Southern Confederacy employed in legitimate commerce” would be admitted to all Cuban ports of entry “if the documents they may present do not cause the slightest suspicion of piracy, fraud, or any other crime punishable according to the laws of all nations.” Once in port the ships were protected by the Queen’s neutrality decree and could “not be molested by any foreign agent, whilst engaged in their lawful operations of entrance and discharge, loading, and departure.”

Queen Isabella's neutrality decree forbad Spanish flagged ships from violating the Federal Naval blockade of the Confederacy. When they frequently did, Spanish officials in Cuba ignored the fact that Spanish ships with customs papers authorizing their transit to neutral ports were returning to Havana loaded to the gunnels with cotton and other Southern goods and accepting passengers to and from Southern ports.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 
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There was no real chance that Spain would support the Confederacy, or that it had the available resources to do so. The Spanish government was suffering from internal turmoil between the liberals and the conservatives and the military was involved in campaigns in north Africa, Santo Domingo, and Asia. Spain still had a significant colonial empire. What Spain did do:

As part of its recognition of the blockade the British government had issued an order on 1 June 1861 forbidding British and Imperial port authorities from admitting prizes seized by Confederate privateers. Her Most Catholic Majesty Queen Isabella II of Spain followed suit on 17 June. These actions by Great Britain and Spain cut the legs out from under Confederate privateering, served to protect Federal shipping, and was consistent with Great Britain’s and Spain’s international status as signatories to the Declaration of Paris. This was consistent with Spain following Britain and France's lead rather than by any persuasion by Carl Schurz. Prior to the receipt of Queen Isabella’s decree in Cuba, seven prizes from the Confederate commerce raider CSS Sumter had been sent into the Cuban port of Cienfuegos. Consistent with the Declaration of Paris the Spanish colonial authorities freed all seven crews, held six of the ships pending a decision by the Spanish government regarding their disposition, and ordered one to leave port. These decisions by the British and Spanish governments forced Confederate commerce raiders to either destroy or ransom Federal commercial shipping they captured since it made it extremely difficult to find a foreign port where they could find a prize court which would accept a Confederate prize for legal action.

Spanish regulations for the customs houses in Cuba required that upon arrival the captains and supercargoes of Spanish and foreign ships provide the customs boat with a manifest certified by a Spanish consul. The regulations specified that “All stores, ammunition, arms, tools, instruments and all other ships utensils must be manifested.” Goods not properly manifested within 12 hours of arrival were subject to confiscation. No goods could be discharged “without the permission of the Collector and knowledge of the Commander of the Customhouse officers.” Thus, Spanish Customs officials in Havana had specific knowledge of the war materiel being brought into Cuba for transhipment to or sale to the Confederates.

Incident to Queen Isabella II’s neutrality decree the Spanish Intendent General in Cuba ordered on 27 August 1861 that ships bearing “the flag of the Southern Confederacy employed in legitimate commerce” would be admitted to all Cuban ports of entry “if the documents they may present do not cause the slightest suspicion of piracy, fraud, or any other crime punishable according to the laws of all nations.” Once in port the ships were protected by the Queen’s neutrality decree and could “not be molested by any foreign agent, whilst engaged in their lawful operations of entrance and discharge, loading, and departure.”

Queen Isabella's neutrality decree forbad Spanish flagged ships from violating the Federal Naval blockade of the Confederacy. When they frequently did, Spanish officials in Cuba ignored the fact that Spanish ships with customs papers authorizing their transit to neutral ports were returning to Havana loaded to the gunnels with cotton and other Southern goods and accepting passengers to and from Southern ports.

Regards,
Don Dixon
Excellent post on a obscure topic.
 
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Thank you Don Dixon for this interesting reply. About all I knew on the subject was that some blockade runners used Cuban ports.
 
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Imperial Spanish policies toward the CSA would have been colored by the very real desire of Southerners to annex Cuba. For at least 50 years, there had been official & unofficial proposals to acquire Cuba by fair means or foul. The Fillabusters in Central America had made it clear that their ultimate goal was to capture Cuba & declare the Slave Empire of the Caribbean.

Immediately after the formation of the CSA gov’t, Jefferson Davis was plagued by all manner of schemers who wanted take Cuba. Quite sensibly, Davis told them that finishing one war before starting another was his policy.

The Spanish Government had no reason to encourage a CSA victory.
 
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There may have been rumblings over a supposed Confederate alliance with France and Spain to expand its reach into Central America. To the extent that Confederate policy makers thought about it, the allure of some sort of pact with either or both of those nations would have cemented Napoleon III's hold on Mexico, and resurrected hopes of a new found Spanish regime in the New World. By dangling those prospects in front of France and Spain, the Confederacy could have had hopes of attaining recognition and support for its cause. Politically speaking, France and Spain where under reactionary rule, unlike Great Britain, which would have appealed to the conservative leaning Confederacy. Needless to say, this did not come to pass.
 
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When I read that Carl Schurz kept Spain from supporting the CSA, I wondered just how much of a task this really was for him. I would speculate that almost any minister Lincoln sent to Spain could have accomplished the same thing.

Queen Isabella issued Spain's neutrality proclamation on 17 June 1861. Schurz presented his credentials on 13 July. Although he had been appointed as Minister Resident he wasn't even in Spain when Isabella issued the proclamation. :smile:

Schurz's predecessor, William Preston of Kentucky, presented his recall to the Court on 24 May to return to the South where he became a Confederate brigadier general. He certainly had no interest in discouraging Isabella from favoring the South.
 
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There was no real chance that Spain would support the Confederacy, or that it had the available resources to do so. The Spanish government was suffering from internal turmoil between the liberals and the conservatives and the military was involved in campaigns in north Africa, Santo Domingo, and Asia. Spain still had a significant colonial empire. What Spain did do:

As part of its recognition of the blockade the British government had issued an order on 1 June 1861 forbidding British and Imperial port authorities from admitting prizes seized by Confederate privateers. Her Most Catholic Majesty Queen Isabella II of Spain followed suit on 17 June. These actions by Great Britain and Spain cut the legs out from under Confederate privateering, served to protect Federal shipping, and was consistent with Great Britain’s and Spain’s international status as signatories to the Declaration of Paris. This was consistent with Spain following Britain and France's lead rather than by any persuasion by Carl Schurz. Prior to the receipt of Queen Isabella’s decree in Cuba, seven prizes from the Confederate commerce raider CSS Sumter had been sent into the Cuban port of Cienfuegos. Consistent with the Declaration of Paris the Spanish colonial authorities freed all seven crews, held six of the ships pending a decision by the Spanish government regarding their disposition, and ordered one to leave port. These decisions by the British and Spanish governments forced Confederate commerce raiders to either destroy or ransom Federal commercial shipping they captured since it made it extremely difficult to find a foreign port where they could find a prize court which would accept a Confederate prize for legal action.

Spanish regulations for the customs houses in Cuba required that upon arrival the captains and supercargoes of Spanish and foreign ships provide the customs boat with a manifest certified by a Spanish consul. The regulations specified that “All stores, ammunition, arms, tools, instruments and all other ships utensils must be manifested.” Goods not properly manifested within 12 hours of arrival were subject to confiscation. No goods could be discharged “without the permission of the Collector and knowledge of the Commander of the Customhouse officers.” Thus, Spanish Customs officials in Havana had specific knowledge of the war materiel being brought into Cuba for transhipment to or sale to the Confederates.

Incident to Queen Isabella II’s neutrality decree the Spanish Intendent General in Cuba ordered on 27 August 1861 that ships bearing “the flag of the Southern Confederacy employed in legitimate commerce” would be admitted to all Cuban ports of entry “if the documents they may present do not cause the slightest suspicion of piracy, fraud, or any other crime punishable according to the laws of all nations.” Once in port the ships were protected by the Queen’s neutrality decree and could “not be molested by any foreign agent, whilst engaged in their lawful operations of entrance and discharge, loading, and departure.”

Queen Isabella's neutrality decree forbad Spanish flagged ships from violating the Federal Naval blockade of the Confederacy. When they frequently did, Spanish officials in Cuba ignored the fact that Spanish ships with customs papers authorizing their transit to neutral ports were returning to Havana loaded to the gunnels with cotton and other Southern goods and accepting passengers to and from Southern ports.

Regards,
Don Dixon
This is excellent information. As you note, Spain had a lot of internal turmoil at the time. It was a severely weakened military power after the Napoleonic wars and the recurring civil war between the Carlist and the Cristino factions was off and on for a good part of the 19th century.
 
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Certainly people were discreet, and it was at the time when she'd been deposed during the brief first Spanish Republic...

In 1859 Sickles did murder his 22-year-old wife Teresa's lover, Philip Barton Key, son of Francis Scott Key, at Lafayette Square. Philip Barton Key was the DA of Washington DC at the time... Fortunately for Dan Sickles, his legal representation by Edward Stanton, future Secretary of War in Lincoln's cabinet, was able to get him acquitted on the grounds of temporary bout of insanity, driven mad with rage and anger as he was by his wife's infidelity. He later had the fence where Philip Barton Key came to grief wrenched free and mounted someplace at his house...

Here's the salacious tale of his second marriage to an attendant of the Reina Isabela segunda, for which Secretary of State Hamilton Fish apparently hurled the accusation that he was exploiting "child virgins for the purpose of prostitution."

Andrew Glass, POLITICO, 20 Oct. 2017: Daniel Sickles

Kevin Baker, NYT "The Man Who Got Away With Everything" review of T. Keneally's American Scoundrel

I freely confess, that I was long obsessed with the near-war with Spain over the fate of the Clyde-built ex-Confederate blockade-runner Virginius in 1873. The captain, Tampa-born Confederate skipper Joseph Fry was among those "pasado por las armas" at Santiago de Cuba after the ship's capture by the ex-Chilean Spanish corvette Tornado.

The Life of Capt. Josephy Fry, the Cuban Martyr


Hamilton Fish was loath to see war against a nascent Spanish Republic... I've researched the U.S. naval maneuvers in the Florida Keys, in preparation for war with Spain in 1873 rather than 1898... wooden ships and spar torpedoes! And of course, some ironclads.
 
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As part of its recognition of the blockade the British government had issued an order on 1 June 1861 forbidding British and Imperial port authorities from admitting prizes seized by Confederate privateers. Her Most Catholic Majesty Queen Isabella II of Spain followed suit on 17 June. These actions by Great Britain and Spain cut the legs out from under Confederate privateering, served to protect Federal shipping, and was consistent with Great Britain’s and Spain’s international status as signatories to the Declaration of Paris.

I'm sorry to contradict you in an otherwise great post you made, but Spain was not a signatory to the Declaration of Paris at that time. As late as the Spanish-American War, Spain still maintained the right to issue letters of marque (although they didn't end up doing so). Spain did not accede to the provisions of the Paris Declaration until the early 20th century. See here, where Spain's accession to the Declaration is given as 1908: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appl...Pages_NORMStatesParties&xp_treatySelected=105

Which makes it surprising, to me, that they took the stance you outlined toward Confederate prizes/privateers.
 
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I'm sorry to contradict you in an otherwise great post you made, but Spain was not a signatory to the Declaration of Paris at that time. As late as the Spanish-American War, Spain still maintained the right to issue letters of marque (although they didn't end up doing so). Spain did not accede to the provisions of the Paris Declaration until the early 20th century. See here, where Spain's accession to the Declaration is given as 1908: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appl...Pages_NORMStatesParties&xp_treatySelected=105

Which makes it surprising, to me, that they took the stance you outlined toward Confederate prizes/privateers.

It would be still be in line with the policy of following the diplomatic line of the French and British governments who had previously supported the Spanish government in its internecine struggles with Carlist elements.
 
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Sirs, given statements like this...

"I want Cuba, I want Tamaulipas, Potosi, and one or two other Mexican States; and I want them all for the same reason -- for the planting and spreading of slavery." - Senator Albert Gallatin Brown

...why would Spain even consider supporting the CSA? Unless it was a "Leave Cuba alone and we'll help you with Mexico..." sort of deal? Or a "If we are going to lose it anyway, maybe we can sell Cuba to the Confederates."

Cheers,
USS ALASKA
 
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