What if Lee went to the West Building Order of Battle (Early 1862) Remade

John Wolf Smith

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RULES:
1. Disregard anything in the Eastern area; e.g. Richmond, New Bern and Seven Pines.

2. Lee moves to the west as Albert Johnston, as his 2nd in Command with troops from the east.
Hardee is in command of the Army of the West and Bragg has a Corps command trying to take Cairo, Illinois from Grant.

3. Island Number Ten, Pea Ridge, Fort Henry and Donelson does not happen in this what-if.

4. Mill Springs and Belmont are CSA victories and Felix Zollicoffer is not killed

5. The New Mexico Campaign never happens and it men go to the west.

6. Ulysses S. Grant is just given the command of a Division in Cairo.

7. Jackson goes west but is given command of his own army in Eastern Kentucky and Southwestern Virginia.

8. The Union invades Kentucky and General George Thomas quits and joins General Lee's staff.

9. The Union orders defences to be made near the Potomac River and the Army of the Potomac, Department of the Rappahannock, Department of the Shenandoah and Middle Department are to man them.

10. The Department of Virginia is to defend Norfolk and Suffolk while the Mountain Department is to defend West Virginia.

Army of the Valley: Robert Lee
Staff:
MG William Wing Loring
BG George H. Thomas
Col S. Crutchfield

Jackson's Division
Garnett’s/Winder's Brigade
Gilham's Brigade
Taliaferro's Brigade
R. Taylor's Brigade

Ewell's Division
Steuart's/Early's Brigade
Elzey's Brigade
Lawton's Brigade
Rodes' Brigade

Hood's Division:
(Texas Brigade) Archer's Brigade
S.R. Anderson's Brigade
Featherston’s Brigade
Hay’s Brigade

(Army of Eastern Kentucky) Marshall's Division: BG Humphrey Marshall
T. H. Taylor's Brigade
McCausland’s Brigade
Donelson's Brigade

(Army of Northwestern Virginia) Johnson's Division:
Conner’s Brigade
Echols’ Brigade
Wharton's Brigade

(Army of New River) Heth's Brigade

Ashby's Cavalry Division:
Lee’s Cavalry Brigade
W. Lee’s Cavalry Brigade
 
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Disregard anything in the Eastern area; e.g. Richmond, New Bern and Seven Pines.

Lee moves to the west as Albert Johnston, as his 2nd in Command with troops from the east.
Hardee is in command of the Army of the West and Bragg has a Corps command trying to take Cairo, Illinois from Grant.
Island Number Ten, Pea Ridge, Fort Henry and Donelson does not happen in this what-if.
Mill Springs and Belmont are CSA victories and Felix Zollicoffer is not killed
The New Mexico Campaign never happens and it men go to the west.
Ulysses S. Grant is just given the command of a Division in Cairo.
Jackson goes west but is given command of his own army in Eastern Kentucky and Southwestern Virginia.
Polk does not invade Kentucky and Camp Wildcat does not happen.

Army of the Valley: Robert Lee
Staff:
MG William Wing Loring
Col S. Crutchfield

Jackson's Division
Garnett’s/Winder's Brigade
Gilham's Brigade
Taliaferro's Brigade
(Army of New River) Heth's Brigade
R. Taylor's Brigade

Ewell's Division
Steuart's/Early's Brigade
Elzey's Brigade
(Part of his Brigade) Lawton's Brigade
(Part of Lawton’s Brigade) Douglas’ Brigade

(Army of Eastern Kentucky) Marshall's Division: BG Humphrey Marshall
T. H. Taylor's Brigade
Trigg's Brigade
McCausland’s Brigade
Donelson's Brigade

(Army of Northwestern Virginia) Johnson's Division:
Conner’s Brigade
Echols’ Brigade
Wharton's Brigade
Rodes' Brigade

Hood's Division:
(Texas Brigade) Archer's Brigade
S.R. Anderson's Brigade
Featherston’s Brigade
Hay’s Brigade

Ashby's Cavalry Division:
Lee’s Cavalry Brigade
W. Lee’s Cavalry Brigade
That's a whole lot of what ifs. To be fair there were only 1,100 estimated Confederate soldiers at the battle of Gloritea Pass basically a full strength regiment.
In Polks defense there is no such thing as neutrality in a civil war. Either the Union occupied Kentucky to draft manpower and liberate Tennessee or the Confederacy will do the same if for no other reason that the Confederacy needs a buffer to protect Tennessee.
No matter who Davis appoints in command in the West there are only a finite amount of Confederate soldiers and the USN will absolutely dominate control of the rivers.
There is strong Unionist sentiment in parts of the West. Tennessee will provide 42k Unionist soldiers plus USCT troopers. Arkansas will provide at least 10k Unionist troops plus USCT troopers.
Lee will face competent Union generals such has Curtis, Rosecrans, Thomas and Grant.
It's a tough roe to hoe.
Leftyhunter
 
Island Number Ten, Pea Ridge, Fort Henry and Donelson does not happen in this what-if.
Then what does? The North isn't just going to sit there.

rmy of the Valley: Robert Lee
Staff:
MG William Wing Loring
BG George H. Thomas
Col S. Crutchfield

Jackson's Division
Garnett’s/Winder's Brigade
Gilham's Brigade
Taliaferro's Brigade
R. Taylor's Brigade

Ewell's Division
Steuart's/Early's Brigade
Elzey's Brigade
Lawton's Brigade
Rodes' Brigade

Hood's Division:
(Texas Brigade) Archer's Brigade
S.R. Anderson's Brigade
Featherston’s Brigade
Hay’s Brigade

(Army of Eastern Kentucky) Marshall's Division: BG Humphrey Marshall
T. H. Taylor's Brigade
McCausland’s Brigade
Donelson's Brigade

(Army of Northwestern Virginia) Johnson's Division:
Conner’s Brigade
Echols’ Brigade
Wharton's Brigade

(Army of New River) Heth's Brigade

Ashby's Cavalry Division:
Lee’s Cavalry Brigade
W. Lee’s Cavalry Brigade
This is going to go disastrously for the South? If I'm reading this right then the AoNV is a single division, and McClellan is going to roll right over that without even needing the Peninsular route.
 
Then what does? The North isn't just going to sit there.


This is going to go disastrously for the South? If I'm reading this right then the AoNV is a single division, and McClellan is going to roll right over that without even needing the Peninsular route.
Disregard anything in the Eastern area; e.g. Richmond, New Bern and Seven Pines.
The union is getting more manpower form Kentucky and is fighting the army of Kentucky for control of the state.
 
Disregard anything in the Eastern area; e.g. Richmond, New Bern and Seven Pines.
But if you're sending tens of thousands of troops from the East then we have to look at the opportunity cost there. It's not like it would be realistic to consider the what-if of sending the whole of Grant and Buell's armies to the Peninsula and say "we're disregarding whatever effect that has on the West".

You could avoid this by only sending west the troops which historically joined Johnston/Lee's army after the retreat from Yorktown (and ideally only after Seven Pines) - there's plenty of troops there - but it does mean you have to give up on the idea of having Jackson, because his presence in the Valley is so important to what happens in the East.
 
But if you're sending tens of thousands of troops from the East then we have to look at the opportunity cost there. It's not like it would be realistic to consider the what-if of sending the whole of Grant and Buell's armies to the Peninsula and say "we're disregarding whatever effect that has on the West".

You could avoid this by only sending west the troops which historically joined Johnston/Lee's army after the retreat from Yorktown (and ideally only after Seven Pines) - there's plenty of troops there - but it does mean you have to give up on the idea of having Jackson, because his presence in the Valley is so important to what happens in the East.

Rule of this thread.

9. The Union orders defences to be made near the Potomac River and the Army of the Potomac, Department of the Rappahannock, Department of the Shenandoah and Middle Department are to man them.

10. The Department of Virginia is to defend Norfolk and Suffolk while the Mountain Department is to defend West Virginia.
 
Rule of this thread.

9. The Union orders defences to be made near the Potomac River and the Army of the Potomac, Department of the Rappahannock, Department of the Shenandoah and Middle Department are to man them.

10. The Department of Virginia is to defend Norfolk and Suffolk while the Mountain Department is to defend West Virginia.

I immediately have questions about why the Department of Virginia has control of Norfolk.
I also have other questions. The Department of the Rappahanock didn't exist until after the Peninsular campaign opened, after all.


I appreciate that what you want to do is focus on the West, and if this means deciding that the Union is going to be strategically passive on a grand scale (not only with no offensives in the East but no Island Number Ten, no Cumberland operations, etc.) then... well, to be honest it sounds like the divergence you actually want is "Scott's Anaconda Plan is adopted as official government policy". But even then I don't think you could get George Thomas quitting to join the CSA, so at this point it's just hand wave-y and there's not much point discussing it as a serious question.
 
I immediately have questions about why the Department of Virginia has control of Norfolk.
I also have other questions. The Department of the Rappahanock didn't exist until after the Peninsular campaign opened, after all.


I appreciate that what you want to do is focus on the West, and if this means deciding that the Union is going to be strategically passive on a grand scale (not only with no offensives in the East but no Island Number Ten, no Cumberland operations, etc.) then... well, to be honest it sounds like the divergence you actually want is "Scott's Anaconda Plan is adopted as official government policy". But even then I don't think you could get George Thomas quitting to join the CSA, so at this point it's just hand wave-y and there's not much point discussing it as a serious question.

1. The Department of Virginia has control of Norfolk in this timeline.
2. The Department of the Rappahannock is the 1st Corps, the defences of Washington and forces at Harper's Ferry.
3. Scott's Anaconda Plan is adopted as official government policy, there will be Eastern Tennessee operations, Cumberland operations and Kentucky operations
4. There will be battles in Missouri, Tennessee and Kentucky. Island Number Ten and Pea Ridge will happen a bit later.
5. I can see John Buford, Jr. and Napoleon B. Buford quitting and joining the CSA.
6. I see George H. Thomas as a man, who would quit if a southern state was invaded by the north while being neutral.
 
1. The Department of Virginia has control of Norfolk in this timeline.
2. The Department of the Rappahannock is the 1st Corps, the defences of Washington and forces at Harper's Ferry.

1) But how? Historically the Confederacy defended Norfolk strongly and it took the Peninsular campaign to render Norfolk's defence non-viable.

2) The thing I'm trying to get at here is that there's no reason for the Department of the Rappahanock to exist at all - not under that name. The Rappahanock is quite a long way south of the Potomac - the historical name came about because, well, McDowell was being given a separate command along the Rappahanock.
 
1) But how? Historically the Confederacy defended Norfolk strongly and it took the Peninsular campaign to render Norfolk's defence non-viable.

2) The thing I'm trying to get at here is that there's no reason for the Department of the Rappahanock to exist at all - not under that name. The Rappahanock is quite a long way south of the Potomac - the historical name came about because, well, McDowell was being given a separate command along the Rappahannock.
1. The CSA pulls out its troops.
2. That force under McDowell is called the Department of the Rappahannock or Department of Washington.

What do you think about
5. I can see John Buford, Jr. and Napoleon B. Buford quitting and joining the CSA.
6. I see George H. Thomas as a man, who would quit if a southern state was invaded by the north while being neutral.
 
1. The CSA pulls out its troops.
2. That force under McDowell is called the Department of the Rappahannock or Department of Washington.
But why? Norfolk is their best shipyard (by far) - abandoning it makes no sense.

5. I can see John Buford, Jr. and Napoleon B. Buford quitting and joining the CSA.
6. I see George H. Thomas as a man, who would quit if a southern state was invaded by the north while being neutral.
Knowing what George H Thomas faced to stay loyal to the US rather than Virginia, I can't see it. Not sure about the Bufords though.
 
I think the problems that are coming up here are because you're sort of coming at it backwards. What you need to do if you want to focus on the West is to find a way you can more or less ignore the East without causing a kind of logical problem.

Having the Anaconda adopted as official Government policy is good, but it has to be realized that this means that Union policy will be to try and control the Mississippi, even if nothing else - that means Island Number Ten won't just be arbitrarily cancelled (as it's a Mississippi control measure).
It's important to keep a certain amount of strength in the East so that the Union policy doesn't revert to "fight a regular campaign against Richmond". The most sensible way to do this is to draw any reinforcements for the West from the coastline of NC/SC/Georgia etc.

It should also be realized that the Union will also have a lot of disposable manpower. If they're not doing anything else with it then they'll basically be assembling a massive force to fight down the Mississippi; they won't keep over 180,000 men doing nothing.
 
1. McClellan would still think that there were about 200,000 CSA men in Virginia and lots more because of general John B. Magruder.
2. I want the men in the army of northern Virginia because I want the TX, AR, MS and LA troops to fight near to their home state.
3. There will be battles in Missouri, Tennessee and Kentucky. Island Number Ten and Pea Ridge will happen a bit later.
4. The VA troops will fight near or in VA.
5. What do you think about this staff idea?? What would you change?

Army of Central Kentucky: Gen Albert S. Johnston
2nd in Command: Gen Robert E. Lee

Johnston’s Staff:
Chief of Staff: Col Samuel B. Maxey
Chief Engineer Ltc Jeremy F. Gilmer
Chief of Artillery: Col Francis A. Shoup
Chief of Ordnance: Ltc Edward P. Alexander
Inspector-General: Maj. Eugene E. McLean
Adjutant-General: Col Thomas Jordan
Physician: Dr. D. W. Yandell
Quartermaster: Ltc John A. Harman
Aides: Col William Preston and Ltc Samuel W. Ferguson
Governor of Tennessee: Isham G. Harris
Governor of Kentucky: George W. Johnson

Lee's Staff:
Chief of Staff: Col Robert H. Chilton
Chief Engineer: Col Walter H. Stevens and Mr. Jedediah Hotchkiss
Chief of Artillery: Col William N. Pendleton
Military Secretary: Col Armistead L. Long
Inspector-General: Maj. Henry K. Douglas
Adjutant-General: Maj. Walter H. Taylor and Maj. A. Sandie Pendleton
Physician: Dr. Lafayette Guild
Aides: Ltc Charles Marshall, Maj. Charles S. Venable and Maj. Edwin G. Lee
 
1. McClellan would still think that there were about 200,000 CSA men in Virginia and lots more because of general John B. Magruder.
That's not even close to what happened historically; there were some overestimates, but for McClellan to think there are over 200,000 enemy troops somewhere you still need more than 150,000 of them there (Aggregate Present).

Magruder had nothing to do with the overestimates, incidentally.
 
Western Theater: (326,950 men)

Army of Central Kentucky: Gen Albert S. Johnston (117,500+10,000 Militia in LA)
2nd in Command: Gen Robert E. Lee

1st Army Corps: LtG Leonidas Polk (24,350)
1st Division: MG Benjamin F. Cheatham (9,800)
2nd Division: MG George B. Crittenden (8,400)
3rd Division: BG Gideon J. Pillow (6,150)

Second Army Corps: LtG Braxton Bragg (42,450+10,000 Militia in LA)

(Department of Louisana) Right-Wing: LtG Braxton Bragg; MG Richard Taylor (21,950+16,000 Militia in LA)
1st Division: MG Richard Taylor; BG Daniel Ruggles (10,350)
2nd Division: BG Dabney H. Maury (11,600)

(With The Army) Left-Wing: BG Jones M. Withers (20,500)
3rd Division: BG Jones M. Withers; BG J. Patton Anderson (10,500)
4th Division: BG Adley H. Gladden (10,000)

Third Army Corps: LtG Edmund K. Smith (28,300) (Will get a 3rd Division from new KY Regiments)
1st Division: BG Thomas C. Hindman (10,800)
2nd Division: BG Johnson K. Duncan (8,350)

Reserve Army Corps: MG Simon B. Buckner, Sr. (15,400) (5 Brigades)

Cavalry: BG John S. Marmaduke; Col Nathan B. Forrest (7,000)

Army of East Tennessee and Western Virginia: LtG Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson (50,000)

Army of Eastern Kentucky: MG George H. Thomas (14,000)

Army of Northwestern Virginia: BG Humphrey Marshall (15,000)

(Invasion of MO) Army of the West: LtG William J. Hardee (60,000-70,000) (Most union MO troops will join the CSA)

Department of Texas and Arkansas: BG Paul O. Hébert (15,000)
Department of Alabama and Florida: MG Samuel Jones (12,900)
Department of Mississippi: MG Mansfield Lovell (12,550)
Department of Georgia: MG Daniel H. Hill (6,000-10,000)
 
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Bloody hell, that's a lot. That's not far off total 1862 Confederate cross-continent mobilization.

In fact, as far as I can tell you have about 100,000 AP left in the East in total. I suspect the US Navy might accidentally capture Savannah...
No that is way D.H.Hill's forces came in. They with the 10,000 to 20,000 men in NC and SC will defend the coast.
 
Bloody hell, that's a lot. That's not far off total 1862 Confederate cross-continent mobilization.

In fact, as far as I can tell you have about 100,000 AP left in the East in total. I suspect the US Navy might accidentally capture Savannah...
How do you think an invasion of MO would end with Hardee in command??
 
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