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What gave Lincoln the right to make an unconstitutional demand on the seceding Southern States?

Discussion in 'Civil War History - Secession and Politics' started by CSA Today, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. CSA Today

    CSA Today Colonel

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    Since when have colonies, territories had the right to representation in parliaments, congresses etc? Had the Crown gave meaningful parliamentary representation to the American colonies it would have had to grant the same privileges to all its colonies. Can you imagine the chaos that would have followed had they done so?

    If the original Founding Fathers didn't think it important enough to include a constitutional clause what pray tell gave Abraham Lincoln and his fellow travelers the right to make an unconstitutional demand on the seceding Southern States?
     
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  3. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    As host.
    This will be a closely moderated thread.
    Any post without evidence and/or references is subject to deletion.
     
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  4. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Great subject matter.
    Looking forward to enlightenment.
     
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  5. johan_steele

    johan_steele Colonel Retired Moderator

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    The absolutely beautiful thing about the Representative Republic that was/is the US is the style of representation. A small state like Vermont had the same representation in the Senate as the more populous Georgia. The electoral college allowed representation at a much more even keel than a pure Democracy.

    The 3/5 clause in particular corrupted the process and gave the slave holding states more representation than they were entitled.

    The Seceding states had no intention of following the Constitution or they would have utilized the courts, Senate and the public instead of attempting to use the bullet over the ballot.

    Lincoln did what he had to do as the POTUS; he preserved the US despite the best efforts of the CSA crowd. Was it worth the blood and treasure expenditure? I think so because there is a US today with no slavery and we are one nation instead of a balkanized group of third rate countries. That some others disagree and wish the US was diminished or gone is to be expected as their idols did their best to destroy this nation.
     
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  6. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 2nd Lieutenant

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    They had utilized the courts, the Senate and tried to work public opinion. But they had reached the point where they felt that they had become a political minority in the Union, and the North and the Republicans would ignore the courts and ignore the Constitution in pursuing their agenda. They spell that out in speeches and in the SC declaration of causes.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

    This sectional combination for the subversion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

    On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

    The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.

    http://www.bartleby.com/268/9/21.html

    What, then, will you take? You will take nothing but your own judgment; that is, you will not only judge for yourselves, not only discard the court, discard our construction, discard the practise of the government, but you will drive us out, simply because you will it. Come and do it! You have sapped the foundations of society; you have destroyed almost all hope of peace. In a compact where there is no common arbiter, where the parties finally decide for themselves, the sword alone at last becomes the real, if not the constitutional, arbiter. Your party says that you will not take the decision of the Supreme Court. You said so at Chicago; you said so in committee; every man of you in both Houses says so. What are you going to do? You say we shall submit to your construction. We shall do it, if you can make us; but not otherwise, or in any other manner. That is settled. You may call it secession, or you may call it revolution; but there is a big fact standing before you, ready to oppose you—that fact is, freemen with arms in their hands.

    For those who say the South should have resorted to the courts, it seems clear that they had lost their faith in the courts, or rather, they had no faith that the North would abide by any court decisions. "The judicial tribunals shall be made sectional".

    The bullet was not their first resort. It was their last resort when they felt backed into the corner. And given that the seceding states held conventions and voted to leave, it can be accurately said that the ballot was their first resort when they decided to leave.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  7. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 2nd Lieutenant

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    Losing the money gave them the right, in their minds anyway.

    http://valley.lib.virginia.edu/VoS/personalpapers/documents/augusta/p3baldwininterview.html#baldwin2

    Answer.-yes, sir; he laughed a little at that. He said something about the withdrawal of the troops from Sumter on the ground of military necessity. Said I, "that will never do under heaven. You have been President a month to-day, and if you intended to hold that position you ought to have strengthened it, so as to make it impregnable. To hold it in the present condition of force there is an invitation to assault. Go upon higher ground than that. The better ground than that is to make a concession of an asserted right in the interest of peace."-"Well," said he, "what about the revenue? What would I do about the collection of duties?" Said I, "Sir, how much do you expect to collect in a year?"-Said he, "Fifty or sixty millions." "Why sir," said I, "four times sixty is two hundred and forty. Say $250,000,000 would be the revenue of your term of the presidency; what is that but a drop in the bucket compared with the cost of such a war as we are threatened with? Let it all go, if necessary; but I do not believe that it will be necessary, because I believe that you can settle it on the basis I suggest."




     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  8. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    All is see is unevidenced rhetoric.
    In an hour all posts above that have not been edited to have references and evidence will be deleted.
    Excluding the OP.
     
  9. demiurge

    demiurge Private

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    http://civilwartalk.com/threads/apocryphal-lincoln-quote.123191/

    There's 2nd hand evidence that Lincoln said that, given by a former Confederate. It's a made up quote. Wishing doesn't make it true.

    And of course can we give any evidence whatsoever Lincoln violated the Constitution when he put down insurrection of the South after they waged war on the US government?

    This matter should have been decided by the Congress or the Court system. The South pursued neither end. They unilaterally declared secession, which might be a philosophical right, but wasn't a legal one. Like the US, if you are going to do so you need to win the war. They didn't.

    All of this is known. But the South in general is a faith based society more than a science driven one. So the religion of the Lost Cause is still followed when it's been discarded almost everywhere else. The very premise of the thread is a matter of faith as opposed to a matter of reason.

    He was POTUS, they waged war, he put them down.
     
  10. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    The quote refereed above is quoted below.
    Looking forward to evidence it is a true quote and not Lost Cause Propaganda.
     
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  11. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Lets stay on topic which is
    What gave Lincoln the right to make an unconstitutional demand on the seceding Southern States?

    Perhaps what exactly the "unconstitutional demand " was would be a good start.
     
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  12. trice

    trice Major

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    The general consensus is that this quote is probably wrong (it came from a Confederate/secessionist source, given 5 years after the fact) and that it misrepresents what Lincoln probably said. See http://civilwartalk.com/threads/apocryphal-lincoln-quote.123191/
     
  13. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    From the above thread.
     
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  14. rpkennedy

    rpkennedy Major

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    I was wondering what exactly this demand was.

    Ryan
     
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  15. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 2nd Lieutenant

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    And I started the thread. You'd think I'd have remembered that discussion. Quote corrected and sourced.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  16. CSA Today

    CSA Today Colonel

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    A demand not specifically delineated in the US Constitution should be straightforward enough.
     
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  17. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Specifically what?
     
  18. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Please list the court cases they lost and the bills in Congress they lost.
    Why did they feel back into the corner.
    Is feelings a good reason?
     
  19. CSA Today

    CSA Today Colonel

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    Lincoln's right to question the South right t secede.
     
  20. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    That appears to be a first amendment free speech right unless your claim is that Lincoln had no right to question the South? Just had to go along without any investigation or thinking about it. Please clarify?
     
  21. CSA Today

    CSA Today Colonel

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    As far as the 1st Amendment goes, Southern secessionists had a right to express their opinion.

    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. U.S. Constitution - 10th Amendment.”
     

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