Westward Ho was The fallacy of the Corwin Amendment

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fwb35

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So what I am getting here is the south left the union because they could not expand slavery? How could they expand after leaving into US territories, it was not part of their country any longer?
 

jgoodguy

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So what I am getting here is the south left the union because they could not expand slavery? How could they expand after leaving into US territories, it was not part of their country any longer?

By conquest.

New Mexico Territory in the American Civil War

The New Mexico Territory, which included the areas which became the modern U.S. states of New Mexico and Arizona as well as the southern part of Nevada, played a role in the Trans-Mississippi Theater of the American Civil War. Both Confederate and Union governments claimed ownership and territorial rights over it. In 1861 the Confederacy claimed the southern tract as its own Arizona Territory and waged the ambitious New Mexico Campaign in an attempt to control the American Southwest and open up access to Union California. Confederate power in the New Mexico Territory was effectively broken after the Battle of Glorieta Pass in 1862. However, the territorial government continued to operate out of Texas, and Confederate troops marched under the Arizona flag until the end of the war. Additionally, over 8,000 troops from New Mexico Territory served the Union.[1]
 

Eric Calistri

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So what I am getting here is the south left the union because they could not expand slavery? How could they expand after leaving into US territories, it was not part of their country any longer?
From Battles and Leaders of the Civil War.


Sibley's New Mexican campaign.--its objects and the causes of its failure.
by T. T. Teel, Major, C. S. A.


The object of his campaign in New Mexico was 1 explained in detail by General H. H. Sibley to the writer in a conversation which occurred just after the former had assumed command of the army. His plans were in substance as follows: While in the United States army and stationed inArizona, he had acquired full information as to the resources of that Territory and of New Mexico; and as to the condition of the United States forces in those Territories, the quantity of Government stores, supplies, transportation, etc. He had informed President Davis of these things, and had submitted to him the plan of campaign. President Davis had authorized him to enlist three regiments in Texas, to constitute a brigade to be mounted and mustered into the service, with such arms as could be obtained in Texas, and, upon arriving in New Mexico, the brigade was to be furnished with arms and equipments out of the supply already captured or that might be captured. His campaign was to be self-sustaining;President Davis knew that Colonel John R. Baylor, with less than five hundred troops, had captured large supplies and was in possession of all of Arizona and the lower part of New Mexico; Sibley was to utilize the results of Baylor's successes, make Mesilla the base of operations, and with the enlistment of men from New Mexico, California, Arizona, and Colorado form an army which would effect the ultimate aim of the campaign, for there were scattered all over theWestern States and Territories Southern men who were anxiously awaiting an opportunity to join the Confederate army. Upon the arrival of his brigade at Mesilla, Sibley was to open negotiations with the governors of Chihuahua,Sonora, and Lower California, for supplies, etc. The objective aim and design of the campaign was the conquest ofCalifornia, and as soon as the Confederate army should occupy the Territory of New Mexico, an army of advance would be organized, and “On to San Francisco” would be the watchword; Califo rnia had to be conquered, so that there would be an outlet for slavery, the boundaries of theConfederacy, as they then existed, including none of theTerritories, but with New Mexico, Arizona, California, andUtah there would be plenty of room for the extension of slavery, which would greatly strengthen the Confederate States. If the Confederates succeeded in occupyingCalifornia, New Mexico, and Arizona, negotiations to secureChihuahua, Sonora, and Lower California, either by purchase or by conquest, would be opened; the state of affairs in Mexico made it an easy thing to take those States, and the Mexican President would be glad to get rid of them and at the same time improve his exchequer. In addition to all this, General Sibley intimated that there was a secret understanding between the Mexican and the Confederateauthorities, and that, as soon as our occupation of the said states was assured, a transfer of those Mexican states would be made to the Confederacy. Juarez, the President of theRepublic (so called), was then in the City of Mexico with a small army under his command, hardly sufficient to keep him in his position. That date (1862) was the darkest hour in the annals of our sister republic, but it was the brightest of the Confederacy, and General Sibley thought that he would have little difficulty in consummating the ends so devoutly wished by the Confederate Government.

See: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2001.05.0044:chapter=8.83
 
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brass napoleon

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Indeed. In the first 18 months of a war in which they claimed to "just want to be left alone", they invaded New Mexico territory, Missouri, Kentucky and Maryland. And that's after they had already bombarded Fort Sumter in order to get Virginia and other slaveholding states to join them.

And then of course with a pro-slavery President and Congress, they could continue their machinations towards the annexation of Cuba, and pursue their oft-stated objective of conquering more Mexican territory. Some were even talking of a "Gulf Confederacy":

"It is true that the interests of the South may demand territorial expansion, for expansion seems to be the law and destiny and necessity of our institutions. To remain healthful and prosperous within and to make sure our development and power, it seems essential that we should grow without. Arizona and Mexico, Central America and Cuba all may yet be embraced within the limits of our Southern republic. A Gulf Confederacy may be established in the South which may well enjoy almost a monopoly in the production of cotton, rice, sugar, coffee, tobacco, and tropical fruits. The trade of all tropical America combined with that of the Cotton States would make our Confederacy the wealthiest, the most progressive, and the most influential power on the globe. Should the border States refuse to unite their destiny with ours, then we may be compelled to look for territorial strength and for political power to those rich and beautiful lands that lie upon our southwestern frontier. Their genial climate and productive soil, their rich agricultural and mineral resources, render them admirably adapted to the institution of slavery. Under the influence of that institution these tropical lands would soon add millions to the commercial wealth of our Republic and their magnificent ports would soon be filled with ships from every nation. Slave labor would there build up for the Southern Confederacy populous and wealthy States as it has built up for the late Union the States of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas."

Lewis M. Stone, Alabama secession convention, January, 1861

Source: http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/smithwr/smith.html
 

fwb35

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From what I have read and studied they wanted to expand into a pro southern south west and try to get recognition from europe and gain western ports for supplies.
 

fwb35

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Virginia and the other northern Confederate states left after Lincoln created an act of war in Charleston harbor, and then called for troops to invade the south, this all happened before the troops entered the New Mexico territory.
 
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Rebforever

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It has been my contention for a long time that the South wanted a path to the Pacific Ocean for shipping purposes.
One thing the North would not let them do.
There is NOTHING between the West Texas plains and the mountains of California that would require slaves but the road to the Pacific would open a new route for cotton sales sales and shipping. Just my take.
 

brass napoleon

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There is NOTHING between the West Texas plains and the mountains of California that would require slaves...
That's not what they thought then:

"The soil in the valley of the Rio del Norte, in New Mexico is generally sandy and looks poor, but by irrigation it produces abundant crops... It is not uncommon there to raise two crops within one year. The general dryness of the climate, and the aridity of the soil in New Mexico, will always confine agriculture to the valleys... But this important defect may be remedied by Artesian wells...

Besides agriculture, the inhabitants of New Mexico pay a great deal of attention to the raising of stock, as horses, mules, cattle, sheep and goats...

A third, much neglected branch of industry in New Mexico are the mines. A great many now deserted mining places in New Mexico prove that mining was pursued with greater zeal in the old Spanish times than at present... The mountainous parts of New Mexico are very rich in gold , copper, iron and some silver."


-- Source: DeBow's Review, Sept. 1848, pp. 223-224​

And if there's any question as to who was going to do this mining:

"The mines of Brazil are most prolific of iron, gold and diamonds... In the search for them, the earth is carefully washed after being taken from the beds of the rivers. The operation is performed by negroes, who receive their liberty when fortunate enough to find a valuable gem. 30,000 negroes have been so employed, and the mines are worked by government."

- DeBow's Review, July, 1848, Volume 6, p. 14

Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=OV82AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14
 

cedarstripper

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It has been my contention for a long time that the South wanted a path to the Pacific Ocean for shipping purposes.
One thing the North would not let them do.
Please explain how "the North" would not let Southerners build a route to the Pacific Ocean for shipping purposes.
 
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NedBaldwin

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It has been my contention for a long time that the South wanted a path to the Pacific Ocean for shipping purposes.
One thing the North would not let them do.
There is NOTHING between the West Texas plains and the mountains of California that would require slaves but the road to the Pacific would open a new route for cotton sales sales and shipping. Just my take.
The purpose of the Gadsen Purchase treaty of 1854 was to open a southern route to the Pacific.
Instrumental in this treaty was the Secretary of War at the time, some guy named Davis.
The "North" did not stop this purchase from happening, though there was concern that Davis had wanted to acquire a much larger portion of northern Mexico for expansion purposes.
 

NedBaldwin

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I recently returned from a visit to family in southern New Mexico.
While there I saw massive open pit copper mines. I can imagine that slave labor would have been useful before mechanical excavators.

While traveling across southern Arizona I saw irrigated [water is the key] areas growing tree nuts, citrus, cotton, melons, leafy vegtables.
Yuma Arizona has been called the Winter Lettuce Capital of the World.
Picking lettuce is labor intensive.

That's not what they thought then:

"The soil in the valley of the Rio del Norte, in New Mexico is generally sandy and looks poor, but by irrigation it produces abundant crops... It is not uncommon there to raise two crops within one year. The general dryness of the climate, and the aridity of the soil in New Mexico, will always confine agriculture to the valleys... But this important defect may be remedied by Artesian wells...

Besides agriculture, the inhabitants of New Mexico pay a great deal of attention to the raising of stock, as horses, mules, cattle, sheep and goats...

A third, much neglected branch of industry in New Mexico are the mines. A great many now deserted mining places in New Mexico prove that mining was pursued with greater zeal in the old Spanish times than at present... The mountainous parts of New Mexico are very rich in gold , copper, iron and some silver."


-- Source: DeBow's Review, Sept. 1848, pp. 223-224​

And if there's any question as to who was going to do this mining:

"The mines of Brazil are most prolific of iron, gold and diamonds... In the search for them, the earth is carefully washed after being taken from the beds of the rivers. The operation is performed by negroes, who receive their liberty when fortunate enough to find a valuable gem. 30,000 negroes have been so employed, and the mines are worked by government."

- DeBow's Review, July, 1848, Volume 6, p. 14

Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=OV82AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14
Edit: added photos of Arizona.

Expired Image Removed

Source: U of Arizona College of Ag

Expired Image Removed
Source: VisitYuma.com
 
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Eric Calistri

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From what I have read and studied they wanted to expand into a pro southern south west and try to get recognition from europe and gain western ports for supplies.
It has been my contention for a long time that the South wanted a path to the Pacific Ocean for shipping purposes.
One thing the North would not let them do.
There is NOTHING between the West Texas plains and the mountains of California that would require slaves but the road to the Pacific would open a new route for cotton sales sales and shipping. Just my take.
I would like to see whatever documentation you can provide to show that Major Teel got it (" California had to be conquered, so that there would be an outlet for slavery") wrong.

Nonetheless, as per the Confederate Constitution ("The Confederate States may acquire new territory ... In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.") any territory gained by the Confederacy, whether for shipping or any other reason, would, by CSA law, be an expansion of slavery.
 
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Eric Calistri

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As per the Confederate Constitution ("The Confederate States may acquire new territory ... In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.") any territory gained by the Confederacy, whether for shipping or any other reason, would, by CSA law, be an expansion of slavery.
 

fwb35

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And your point? So slavery would be legal, correct? Where does it say the reason for expansion is slavery? It just means slavery would be legal as it is in all other CSA and some USA states, correct????
 
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ole

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Locomotives ran on steam. Steam comes from water. Where is the water?

I forget the distance a locomotive could travel before having to refill the tank, but it was ridiculously low.

Pipe dreams.
 

IcarusPhoenix

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Secession conventions in Mesilla and Tucson voted to join the territory to the Confederacy in March 1861
The Mesilla convention was made up of Texans brought across the border by Baylor, and the Tucson convention was made up only of the white population, which was 9% of the total population.

Sounds pretty pro southern to me.....
It would, since you only acknowledge facts that appear to agree with you and ignore all others.
 
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brass napoleon

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For years, residents in the southern part of the New Mexico Territory had been complaining that the territorial government in Santa Fe was too far away to properly address their concerns. The withdrawal of the Regular army at the beginning of the war confirmed to the residents that they were being abandoned. Secession conventions in Mesilla and Tucson voted to join the territory to the Confederacy in March 1861
On March 11, 1861, the Confederate Constitution of seven state signatories—South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas— replaced the February 7 provisional C.S. constitution with one stating in its preamble a desire for a "permanent federal government". Four additional slave-holding states—Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina—declared their secession and joined the Confederacy following a call by U.S. President Abraham Lincoln for troops from each state to recapture Sumter and other lost federal properties in the South. Missouri and Kentucky were represented by partisan factions from those states. Also aligned with the Confederacy were two of the "Five Civilized Tribes" and a new Confederate Territory of Arizona.
When sectional disputes back East finally developed into civil war, many Arizonans were ready to join their southern brethren to create a new nation, especially when the United States government revoked the mail contract of the Butterfield Stage Line, further isolating the region. In Mesilla, just up the Rio Grande from the Texas border, and in Tucson, some 300 miles to the west, conventions were held in March, 1861, declaring the secession of Arizona from New Mexico Territory and the Union. A delegate to the Confederate Congress was chosen and the newly created Stars and Bars replaced the Union flag all over the region. Although the struggling Confederacy took a full year to get around to officially granting territorial status, Arizona was born. A Confederate outlet at a port like San Diego would offset Union efforts to blockade the East and Gulf coasts. A Confederate nation stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific would greatly enhance possibilities of European recognition. Within the newly gained western region were vast gold and silver deposits, which would be diverted from the treasury of the Union to that of the Confederacy.

Sounds pretty pro southern to me.....
Other than having lifted these posts directly from Wikipedia and this source without attribution, is there a point you're trying to make with the above? (In your OWN words, please)
 
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Eric Calistri

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And your point? So slavery would be legal, correct? Where does it say the reason for expansion is slavery? It just means slavery would be legal as it is in all other CSA and some USA states, correct????
Your question:

"So what I am getting here is the south left the union because they could not expand slavery? How could they expand after leaving into US territories, it was not part of their country any longer?"

So my point, as direct answer to your question is: They planned to take, by conquest, territory from the united states.

From: https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/qds03

SIBLEY CAMPAIGN. The Confederate Texan invasion of New Mexico Territory in 1861–62 was the westernmost campaign of the Civil War. In June 1861 President Jefferson Davis appointed Henry Hopkins Sibley, a former regular army officer, a brigadier general and authorized him to recruit a brigade of volunteers in central and south Texas to occupy the adjacent federal territories. Sibley planned an ambitious campaign. He intended to march north from El Paso, occupy New Mexico, seize the rich mines of Colorado Territory, then turn west through Salt Lake City, and take over the seaports of Los Angeles and San Diego. By one stroke, with a minimal force living off the land, Sibley would bring the entire Southwest under Confederate control. He believed the native people of New Mexico, as well as the recent immigrants to Colorado, Utah, and California would join his ranks.
 
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