"We Don't Have Enough Contempt for NBF"

19thGeorgia

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
In all sincerity though can you cite who said this? It's a biblical reference to Revelations but I'm not sure who you have in mind as having said it.

Regardless, my point is that it seems ridiculous to excuse 19th Century slaveholders as being "of their time and place" when their time and place also included individuals who were vocally opposed to slavery and demanded immediate emancipation. Even a small number of Southerners became abolitionists like the Grimke Sisters.
Daily Dispatch (Richmond, Va), March 15, 1865:

Mr. W. O. Duval said: ‘"I sincerely hope a civil war may soon burst upon the country. I want to see American slavery abolished in my time."’ "When the time arrives for the streets of our cities to run with blood to the horses' bridles, if the writer of this be living, there will be one heart to rejoice at the retributive justice of Heaven." We have not heard whether this amiable gentleman is "living." If he is, like most of his class, he keeps out of the war, and contents himself with "rejoicing at the retributive justice"....
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2006.05.1322:article=4
 

Borderruffian

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Location
Marshfield Missouri
Abolitionists were also of that same place and time. So I don't think that argument really holds a lot of water....
So despite time and place and the culture of the south at this time and place, and even the Federal laws that recognized the sale, purchase, and holding of human chattel in enumerated states and territories at this time and the Fugitive Slave Act which legally allowed the reclamation of escaped slaves you're okay with holding people like NBF accountable, but not Abolitionists? Interesting.
 

Zack

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Location
Los Angeles, California
So despite time and place and the culture of the south at this time and place, and even the Federal laws that recognized the sale, purchase, and holding of human chattel in enumerated states and territories at this time and the Fugitive Slave Act which legally allowed the reclamation of escaped slaves you're okay with holding people like NBF accountable, but not Abolitionists? Interesting.

I'm not following your argument. Hold Abolitionists accountable for what?
 

Zack

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Location
Los Angeles, California
Daily Dispatch (Richmond, Va), March 15, 1865:

Mr. W. O. Duval said: ‘"I sincerely hope a civil war may soon burst upon the country. I want to see American slavery abolished in my time."’ "When the time arrives for the streets of our cities to run with blood to the horses' bridles, if the writer of this be living, there will be one heart to rejoice at the retributive justice of Heaven." We have not heard whether this amiable gentleman is "living." If he is, like most of his class, he keeps out of the war, and contents himself with "rejoicing at the retributive justice"....
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2006.05.1322:article=4

Thank you for providing the full quote and source.
 

Zack

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Location
Los Angeles, California
A lot of people share your opinion.
Personally I can understand that fact.

And you are correct ... the Abolitionists were as steadfast as the Secessionists.

But the Southern slave economy/social relationship was more complicated than the Abolitionists fully could comprehend.

Forrest will always be vilified as slaver trader and the Commanding officer at Fort Pillow.
I have no problem with that. It is historical fact.

But Forrest's attempts at redemption after the War seem to always be ignored or much maligned by "historians".

Anyway, as an original Host of the Forrest forum I hope you read more.
There's a lot of good info in these sub forums.

I feel like the Grimke Sisters probably understood it.

My point is I think it's wrong to hide behind "time and place" arguments when the "time and place" in question had a much broader diversity of opinion.

Thank you for the invitation to peruse the sub-forum. Always excited to learn new information.
 

Zack

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Location
Los Angeles, California
Conveniently ignored by people who show incredible insight and nuance in many areas except for this. Just doesn’t fit the narrative.

He gave a friendly speech and called for the end of the KKK, right? Is that what you're referencing?

Edit - sorry that sounded really dismissive. I meant as a genuine question.
 

Zack

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Location
Los Angeles, California
Here's a non-rhetorical question - if Nathan Bedford Forrest's repudiation of his ways later in life merits a more positive view of his character, then does John Brown's noble cause merit a more positive view of his character?

If bringing in John Brown pulls this thread too off course I apologize.
 
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Location
Southwest Mississippi
Thank you for the invitation to peruse the sub-forum. Always excited to learn new information.

You are very welcome !
I feel like the Grimke Sisters probably understood it.
I'm sure those girls did .
Quite a large number of Antebellum Southerners were Abolitionists.

My point is I think it's wrong to hide behind "time and place" arguments when the "time and place" in question had a much broader diversity of opinion.

While at times, many Southern arguments do seem to come across as hiding behind the "time and place" argument ...
I honestly don't think any one is hiding behind that fact.

But it was indeed a different era.

There is a legitimate reason to study all the warts of antebellum society, South, North, and the West Coast.










 

Borderruffian

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Location
Marshfield Missouri
I'm not following your argument. Hold Abolitionists accountable for what?
What do you actually know about Abolisiinists specifically in Kansas? Ever heard of Freedom Raids? How about the murders and Arsons committed as a by product of said raids? Know what Breechers Bibles were? How about The Church of the Holy Rifle? It's a two way street albolishionist weren't by any means poor picked on misunderstood knights in shining armour.
 

Cycom

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
Nothing beats personal research---well, except for rigid, totally inflexible agendas
Bingo.

I have lost count of how many times I’ve posted multiple primary sources that proved NBF dramatically changed his views on race and his push for genuine reconciliation AND his disbandment of the Klan. Conveniently and consciously glossed over by people who should know better but would rather continue a ridiculous narrative because they’ve attached a boogeyman status to the man.

Guess people don’t truly believe in the power of redemption. Or that it applies only to some.
 

uaskme

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Location
SE Tennessee
I feel like the Grimke Sisters probably understood it.

My point is I think it's wrong to hide behind "time and place" arguments when the "time and place" in question had a much broader diversity of opinion.

Thank you for the invitation to peruse the sub-forum. Always excited to learn new information.
About 1% of Northerners in 1860 were Abolitionist. You seem to think they were the consciousness of the North. They weren’t. Northern Negrophobics tared and feathered them at the mention of negro equality.
 

Cycom

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
He gave a friendly speech and called for the end of the KKK, right? Is that what you're referencing?

Edit - sorry that sounded really dismissive. I meant as a genuine question.
If calling for the reconciliation of N & S and the healing of the divide between races multiple times is merely a “friendly” act to you, then yes, you are being dismissive of the redemptive qualities he demonstrated over and over post-war.

No personal offense taken, Zack.
 

Zack

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Location
Los Angeles, California
What do you actually know about Abolisiinists specifically in Kansas? Ever heard of Freedom Raids? How about the murders and Arsons committed as a by product of said raids? Know what Breechers Bibles were? How about The Church of the Holy Rifle? It's a two way street albolishionist weren't by any means poor picked on misunderstood knights in shining armour.
About 1% of Northerners in 1860 were Abolitionist. You seem to think they were the consciousness of the North. They weren’t. Northern Negrophobics tared and feathered them at the mention of negro equality.

Okay people are really not following my argument. Sorry for not being clear. You're reading way too much into what I said.

My only point was that there were people in the 1860s who thought slavery was good and people who thought it was bad. They all existed in the same time and place.

I said literally nothing beyond this.
 

Zack

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Location
Los Angeles, California
If calling for the reconciliation of N & S and the healing of the divide between races multiple times is merely a “friendly” act to you, then yes, you are being dismissive of the redemptive qualities he demonstrated over and over post-war.

No personal offense taken, Zack.

I'll grab a thesaurus next time :D
 

Drew

Major
Joined
Oct 22, 2012

huskerblitz

Major
Joined
Jun 8, 2013
Location
Nebraska
My only point was that there were people in the 1860s who thought slavery was good and people who thought it was bad. They all existed in the same time and place.
The problem, as I see it, is this doesn't really do much to further discussion because there has never been a time in history where there wasn't competing thoughts on similar subjects. For every Simon Legree-esque slave owner there is a John Brown and vice versa. I don't think there can be any doubt as to the position of the vast majority of Northerners about slavery and blacks in general....they didn't care one way or the other just as long as they weren't living next door. It's a sad reality, but that was the reality. Just because many in the North didn't desire slaves of their own didn't mean they were entirely righteous. And of course the same could be said in the opposite direction for good, religious men of the South who also happened to own slaves. The real problem is when either persuasion tries to pigeon hole the other. It just doesn't really work.
 
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