Was there really a majority for secession in the south?

[CSA Today]

North Carolina just ignored the neutrality option and joined the

North Carolina just ignored the neutrality option and joined the slaveholding rebellion.

Seriously, was there a neutrality option? Had North Carolina stayed in the old union what was to prevent the US from using the state as a staging area to attack the Confederate states?

"Wartime [North Carolina] governor Zebulon B. Vance later wrote that he "was pleading for the Union with hand upraised when news came of Fort Sumter and Lincoln’s call for troops. When my hand came down from that impassioned gesticulation, it fell slowly and sadly by the side of a secessionist."

"He went on to say: "If war must come I preferred to be with my own people. If we had to shed blood, I preferred to shed Northern rather than Southern blood. If we had to slay, I preferred to slay strangers than my own kindred and neighbors; and it was better, whether right or wrong, that communities and states should go together and face the horrors of war in a body – sharing a common fate, rather than endure the unspeakable calamities of internecine strife… The argument having ceased and the sword drawn, all classes in the South united as by magic, as only a common danger could unite them."

 

[CSA Today]

That is forces needed to put down a hostile rebellion that attacked the United States. NC had the right to refuse Lincoln and stay loyal to the Union.

North Carolina also had the right to join the Confederate States.

 

[CSA Today]

Elections were not secret ballot. You announced your vote in front of the candidates. Planters controlled elections in many areas. So I wonder if delegates to secession conventions were really democratically elected.

South Carolina and Louisiana had property restriction on voting.

Virginia initially voted 2-1 against secession. That 8-5 for secession. It's secession was confirmed by a questionable referendum with a 5-1 popular vote for secession. The vote was unanimous for secession in many counties. All the votes were lost and not counted from several Unionist counties. Tennessee seceded based on a fraudulent referendum with no vote of a convention to secede. North Carolina seceded after it was cut off from the Union by Virginia and Tennessee seceding.

Is it your opinion that elections in the North were more democratic in the 1860s?

 

[jgoodguy]

North Carolina also had the right to join the Confederate States.

Nothing in the Constitution about a State having to supply militia to Lincoln, but there is this

SECTION 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.​

​

 

[jgoodguy]

Seriously, was there a neutrality option? Had North Carolina stayed in the old union what was to prevent the US from using the state as a staging area to attack the Confederate states?

"Wartime [North Carolina] governor Zebulon B. Vance later wrote that he "was pleading for the Union with hand upraised when news came of Fort Sumter and Lincoln’s call for troops. When my hand came down from that impassioned gesticulation, it fell slowly and sadly by the side of a secessionist."

"He went on to say: "If war must come I preferred to be with my own people. If we had to shed blood, I preferred to shed Northern rather than Southern blood. If we had to slay, I preferred to slay strangers than my own kindred and neighbors; and it was better, whether right or wrong, that communities and states should go together and face the horrors of war in a body – sharing a common fate, rather than endure the unspeakable calamities of internecine strife… The argument having ceased and the sword drawn, all classes in the South united as by magic, as only a common danger could unite them."

KY did declare neutrality and was observed by Lincoln and was successful until the CSA that the same thing that NC joined violated its sovereignty. So when the South was in charge, they regularly violated the States Rights' Sovignerity of the North to send kidnappers of black Northern citizens into those States forcing federalism on the Free States literally shoving it down their throats and when a Sovereign States declared neutrality, they following habit and invaded it. So much for States' Rights.

 

[leftyhunter]

Seriously, was there a neutrality option? Had North Carolina stayed in the old union what was to prevent the US from using the state as a staging area to attack the Confederate states?

"Wartime [North Carolina] governor Zebulon B. Vance later wrote that he "was pleading for the Union with hand upraised when news came of Fort Sumter and Lincoln’s call for troops. When my hand came down from that impassioned gesticulation, it fell slowly and sadly by the side of a secessionist."

"He went on to say: "If war must come I preferred to be with my own people. If we had to shed blood, I preferred to shed Northern rather than Southern blood. If we had to slay, I preferred to slay strangers than my own kindred and neighbors; and it was better, whether right or wrong, that communities and states should go together and face the horrors of war in a body – sharing a common fate, rather than endure the unspeakable calamities of internecine strife… The argument having ceased and the sword drawn, all classes in the South united as by magic, as only a common danger could unite them."

And Vance was absolutely wrong about " all classes in the South united as by magic,as only a common danger could unite them."
One hundred and four thousand Southern men enlisted in the Union Army. Over 150k Southern black men joined the Union Army. Thousands of slaves fled their brutal masters. There where Unionist guerrillas who took over parts of the Confederacy by the summer of 1864.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

North Carolina also had the right to join the Confederate States.

If that was true then why didn't the secessionists seek the protection of the Federal Courts?
Leftyhunter

 

[CSA Today]

Nothing in the Constitution about a State having to supply militia to Lincoln, but there is this

SECTION 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.​

​

Then Lincoln would have been wise to not ask for two regiments from the state.

 

[CSA Today]

If that was true then why didn't the secessionists seek the protection of the Federal Courts?
Leftyhunter

That would have made about as much sense as the rebellious colonists asking the English courts for protection from King George and Parliament.

 

[CSA Today]

And Vance was absolutely wrong about " all classes in the South united as by magic,as only a common danger could unite them."
One hundred and four thousand Southern men enlisted in the Union Army. Over 150k Southern black men joined the Union Army. Thousands of slaves fled their brutal masters. There where Unionist guerrillas who took over parts of the Confederacy by the summer of 1864.
Leftyhunter

Lefty, can you think of an instance in history where there was a unanimous consensus in even a popular war or cause?

 

[leftyhunter]

Lefty, can you think of an instance in history where there was a unanimous consensus in even a popular war or cause?

Sure but it would be modern politics.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

That would have made about as much sense as the rebellious colonists asking the English courts for protection from King George and Parliament.

No not at all. If secession was truly legal then it would be simple to prove it in court.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Then Lincoln would have been wise to not ask for two regiments from the state.

Actually Lincoln ended up with more then two regiments from North Carolina. They are listed in Dyer's Compendium.
Leftyhunter

 

[Greywolf]

North Carolina just ignored the neutrality option and joined the slaveholding rebellion.

Just wanted to give an lol to this one imho.

 

[Jimklag]

That would have made about as much sense as the rebellious colonists asking the English courts for protection from King George and Parliament.

Nonsense. The colonists knew they were rebels and knew they would be hung for treason if they lost. They also knew that the courts were "royal" courts subservient to the king and Parliament both of whom had proclaimed the colonists to be traitors. The US courts were at least as pro-south as pro-north (see the Dred Scott decision) and if secession were even remotely constitutional one can assume a fair hearing in US court. In fact, Chief Justice Taney, a slave-owning southerner, declared that secession was illegal. The south knew they were rebels and chose to fight in a rebellion rather than choose peaceful alternatives.

 

[jgoodguy]

Just wanted to give an lol to this one imho.

Then again they were surrounded by warlike rebels with raging South Carolina next door.

 

[Greywolf]

Then again they were surrounded by warlike rebels with raging South Carolina next door.

What was poor old NC to do, hotheads to the south, extended family connections in Va. From the old days, and 75k blue coats marching through. VA. put us in a bad spot, then claimed all the glory with that dastardly, fancy dressed, and perfumed Pickett.

 

[jgoodguy]

What was poor old NC to do, hotheads to the south, extended family connections in Va. From the old days, and 75k blue coats marching through. VA. put us in a bad spot, then claimed all the glory with that dastardly, fancy dressed, and perfumed Pickett.

75K imaginary blue coats. Gotta watch for out for perfumed rebel generals who neglect their duties to court teenage girls even if she was a beauty.

 

[Greywolf]

75K imaginary blue coats. Gotta watch for out for perfumed rebel generals who neglect their duties to court teenage girls even if she was a beauty.

Yep, ended up being near 100k

 

[jgoodguy]

Yep, ended up being near 100k

About what Jefferson Davis called up. Figuring 1 to 10 ratio, he was figuring on a million man Union Army.

 

[CSA Today]

Sure but it would be modern politics.
Leftyhunter

Then please list a couple of examples of where there was unanimous consent from a large group of people anywhere in 1860/1861?