Was the southern states attempt at disunion peaceful?

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Was the southern states attempt at disunion peaceful?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 18 75.0%

  • Total voters
    24
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BuckeyeWarrior

Corporal
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Location
Ohio
I have seen the claim many times that the southern states attempt at disunion was peaceful. Do the members of this board believe it was peaceful? Why or Why not?

I believe it was not peaceful and as evidence I post the following list of actions by southern states as proof.

December 27, 1860—South Carolina seizes Fort Moultrie, Castle Pinckney, a Federal schooner and other Federal property.

December 30, 1860—South Carolina seizes the Federal Arsenal at Charleston.

December 31—South Carolina seizes the U.S. post office and the Customs house in Charleston.

January 3—Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski to prevent U.S. troops from garrisoning it.

January 4—Alabama seizes the US arsenal at Mount Vernon.

January 5—Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines.

January 6—Florida seizes the Apalachicola arsenal.

January 7—Florida seizes Fort Marion.

January 9, 1861—In Charleston, southern guns fire on the Star of the West as it attempts to re-supply Fort Sumter.

January 10, 1861—Florida demands the surrender of Fort Pickens (refused).
 
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Greywolf

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If you were going ot secede or rebel, whichever cup of tea you want to call it. Would you leave garrisoned troops within facilites within the borders of your claimed territory? As a secessionist believing that your secession is justified do nothing? Would you not take possession of any equipment, facilities, etc., in case you had to defend your attempt at self preservation? After all, fairly recently in history you had heard Jacksons bluster and threats.
I do not understand why some believe they should just sit on their haunches and do nothing. Exactly how many Union troops were killed, hung, executed, etc. during takeover of these facilities?

If I had seceded or rebelled I would have done the same. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I suspect most on here would have done the same, maybe worse.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
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Location
los angeles ca
If you were going ot secede or rebel, whichever cup of tea you want to call it. Would you leave garrisoned troops within facilites within the borders of your claimed territory? As a secessionist believing that your secession is justified do nothing? Would you not take possession of any equipment, facilities, etc., in case you had to defend your attempt at self preservation? After all, fairly recently in history you had heard Jacksons bluster and threats.
I do not understand why some believe they should just sit on their haunches and do nothing. Exactly how many Union troops were killed, hung, executed, etc. during takeover of these facilities?

If I had seceded or rebelled I would have done the same. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I suspect most on here would have done the same, maybe worse.
If it was perfectly legal for states to secede then why not go thru the federal courts?
Leftyhunter
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
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Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
If you were going ot secede or rebel, whichever cup of tea you want to call it. Would you leave garrisoned troops within facilites within the borders of your claimed territory? As a secessionist believing that your secession is justified do nothing? Would you not take possession of any equipment, facilities, etc., in case you had to defend your attempt at self preservation? After all, fairly recently in history you had heard Jacksons bluster and threats.
I do not understand why some believe they should just sit on their haunches and do nothing. Exactly how many Union troops were killed, hung, executed, etc. during takeover of these facilities?

If I had seceded or rebelled I would have done the same. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I suspect most on here would have done the same, maybe worse.
If you do all of the things you state above, @Greywolf , then you automatically give up the ideal of "peaceful secession."

When you do all of the things you state above, you are expecting, no, preparing for a war you know is coming (or that you assume is coming) and therefore cannot cling to the self-serving idea that you are attempting to leave the Union by "leaving in peace."

It simply shows that you are predisposed to violent action and are attempting to justify those actions by going straight to violent acts that in all likely hood, will be reacted to in the same manner.

No, you either mean what you say or simply acknowledge you don't really believe what you are saying.

There were other ways to prepare without resorting to war like acts. Instead, meaningless words like, "We only wish to be left alone" and then theft, imprisonment of federal troops, seizure of federal property and then firing on troops and ships does not give any serious weight to those words.

Like the Duke said in one of his movies, "Words are what men live by."

Unionblue
 
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unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Location
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To All,

An oldie, but a goodie.

First Acts of War.


Unionblue
 

Duncan

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
The Confederate secessions were remarkably disciplined, orderly, restrained, and peaceful, especially if a comparison is made between their secessions and the secession of the American Colonies from the British Empire. In that case the traitorous rebels were violently assaulting and murdering British soldiers long before July 4, 1776. And then there was the 1.7 million dollars (adjusted) in tea that the vandals and thieves who perpetrated the Boston Tea Party destroyed. By comparison, the Confederates looked like a Church Choir singing Hymns on Sunday morning.
 
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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
The Confederate secessions were remarkably disciplined, orderly, restrained, and peaceful, especially if a comparison is made between those secessions and the secession of the American Colonies from the British Empire. In that case the traitorous rebels were violently assaulting and murdering British soldiers long before July 4, 1776. And then there was the 1.7 million dollars (adjusted) in tea that the vandals and thieves who perpetrated the Boston Tea Party destroyed. By comparison, the Confederates looked like a Church Choir singing Hymns on Sunday morning.
I really like your prose. A course in colonial history was the real eye-opener for me. :thumbsup:
 
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BuckeyeWarrior

Corporal
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Location
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To All,

An oldie, but a goodie.

First Acts of War.


Unionblue
Excellent post. Much more informative and in-depth then my timeline. Hope you don't mind but I'm going to repost it here.

December 20, 1860.
South Carolina secedes from the Union.
On that same day William T. Sherman says to his friends in the South, "
You, you people of the South, believe there can be such a thing as peaceable secession. You don't know what you are doing. I know there can be no such thing...If you will have it, the North must fight you for its own preservation. Yes, South Carolina has by the act precipitated war..."

December 27, 1860.
The first Federal property to fall into South Carolina hands is the U.S. revenue cutter
William Aiken turned over to secessionists by its commander, Capt. N. L. Coste, who did not resign his commission and therefore was in violation of his oath of office. The crew left the ship and went North.

Castle Pickney was seized by South Carolina militia and a problem arose: were the two Federal soldiers captured in the fort to be considered prisoners of war? If so, it would imply that there was in fact, a WAR. Following a lengthy discussion, the one Federal officer was allowed to go to Ft. Sumter while a sergeant and his family were given safe conduct to remain in their quarters at the fort. What was significant was that the secessionists now held, for the first time, a U.S. fort. Union officer Abner Doubleday called it "the first overt act of the Secessionists against the Sovereignty of the United States."

Fort Moultrie
is also occupied by South Carolina militia on this day, after the fort was abandoned by Major Anderson and Federal troops on December 26, 1860, who relocated to Ft. Sumter during the night.

December 28, 1860.
A detachment of South Carolina militia enters and takes control of Fort Johnson. Three out of four Federal forts have been seized and are now under the control of South Carolina militia troops.

January 3, 1861.
The War Department cancelled plans to ship guns from Pittsburgh to the forts in the South. Former Secretary of War Floyd, who resigned and went South, had been shipping weapons and large guns South for the past several months to help build up the Southern arsenals.

January 4, 1861.

Even though it had not yet seceded from the Union, Alabama troops seize the
U.S. arsenal at Mt. Vernon, Ala.

January 5, 1861.
Even though it STILL has not yet seceded from the Union, Alabama troops seizes
Fort Morgan and Gaines which protect the harbor at Mobile.

January 6, 1861.
Even though it has not yet seceded from the Union, Florida troops seize the Federal arsenal at Apalachiocola

January 7, 1861.

Even though it has STILL not seceded from the Union, Florida troops seize Fort Marion at St. Augustine
.
January 8, 1861.
At Fort Barrancas, guarding the entrance to Pensacola Harbor, Federal troops fired on a raiding party of about twenty men, who then fled.

January 9, 1861.

On this day, Senators Judah P. Benjamin and John Slidell of Louisiana telegraphed Gov. Moore of that state (which had not yet seceded from the Union), that Federal gunboats were secretly bringing supplies to the forts at the mouth of the Mississippi River. Both men had yet to resign from the Senate. Gov. Moore ordered Braxton Bragg and 500 troops to seize the
forts and the United States arsenal at Baton Rouge.

On this same day, the Star of the West attempted to resupply Fort Sumter but was fired on by a masked battery from Morris Island and then by guns from Fort Moultrie. In spite of the fact the ship was flying two United States flags, the ship was repeatedly fired on. The ship turned and steamed away.

January 10, 1862.
General Bragg and the militia seize the United States forts and arsenals
in Louisiana. William T. Sherman, presiding as head of the Louisiana State Seminary of Learning and Military Academy, stated that Bragg's actions were, "an act of war and a breach of common decency."

On the same day in North Carolina, before that state had yet to secede, citizens of Smithville and Wilmington occupied
Forts Johnson and Caswell. The State government at Raleigh later repudiated these moves.

January 12, 1861.
Captain James Armstrong, commander of the Warrington Navy Yard at Pensacola, Florida, is captured and "
regarded [as] a prisoner of war, and...placed on his parole of honor...not to bear arms against the State of Florida."

January 13, 1861.
Several men are seen near Fort Pickens in the night and were fired upon. These unknown men retired from the area of the fort.

January, 18, 1861.
In the United States House of Representatives, John Sherman, brother of William T. Sherman, rose to reply to his Ohio colleague, Pendleton, remarks that the North should be concillatory towards the South. Sherman, in a highly emotional speech, said
that it was not the North that should be concillatory, it was the South; were they not the ones who had fired on the flag and seized government property? Was not Mississippi stopping all traffic at Vicksburg for search? (which Mississippi had begun on January 12, 1861.)

January 21, 1861.

Mississippi troops seize Fort Massachusetts off the coast, in the Gult. Ship Island is also taken.

January 24, 1861.
Georgia troops occupy the U.S. arsenal at Augusta.

January 26, 1861.
At Savannah, Georgia, Fort Jackson and the Oglethorpe Barracks
are seized by state troops.

January 29, 1861.
Louisiana state troops take possession of Fort Macomb, outside New Orleans. The revenue cutter Robert McClelland
is surrendered to Louisiana state authorities by Captain Breshwood, despite orders not to do so by the Secretary of the Treasury.
Also on this date, a notice of truce was sent from Washington to the army and navy commanders at Pensacola. It was the result of an agreement between Secretaries Holt and Toucey and Florida official Chase and Stephen Mallory.

January 30, 1861.
President-elect Lincoln leaves Springfield, Ill., to visit his step-mother in Coles County. He has not even left for Washington yet. In Mobile Bay, the U.S. revenue schooner Lewis Cass was surrendered to Alabama by its commander.

January 31, 1861.
In New Orleans, the U.S. Branch Mint was seized by state troops along with the revenue schooner Washington.

February 8, 1861.

Before it had yet to secede from the Union, Arkansas seized the Little Rock U.S. arsenal.

February 11, 1861.

Lincoln boards the train that will take him to Washington.

February 16, 1861.
Although it had yet to secede from the Union, in San Antonio, Texas, state troops seize the U.S. military compound, barracks and arsenal.

February 19, 1861.

In New Orleans, the U.S. Paymaster's office was seized by state troops.

March 2, 1861.
Texas, now out of the Union, seizes the U.S. revenue schooner Henry Dodge at Galveston.

March 6, 1861.
The Confederate Congress authorizes an army of 100,000 volunteers for twelve months.

March 15, 1861.
The State of Louisiana transferred over $536,000 in money taken from the U.S. Mint in New Orleans to the Confederate government.

March 18, 1861.
In the Florida panhandle, General Braxton Bragg refused to permit further supply of Ft. Pickens, in effect, nullifying the truce then in effect between Washington and Florida from January 29, 1861.

March 20, 1861.
Texas troops seize three more Federal forts. At Mobile, a Federal supply ship, the U.S. sloop
Isabella, was seized before it could sail with supplies to Pensacola.

April 3, 1861.
In Charleston, South Carolina, a battery placed on Morris Island, fired at the Federal schooner Rhoda H. Shannon

April 12, 1861.

At 4:30AM, Fort Sumter was fired on by Confederate forces.

April 15, 1861.
President Lincoln calls for 75,000 volunteers for three months service.

It's amazing how many of these acts took place before the state had "seceded". So even if there was some hidden right to "secession" in the constitution that magically made them their own country (which there isn't) then all these acts before their claim of being independent from America are clearly acts of treason.

I also find it telling that the "peaceful" rebels called for 100,000 troops more than a month before Lincoln called for troops.
 

Duncan

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Don't forget that 73 British soldiers were murdered by the terrorist colonials at Lexington and Concord, and another 174 were violently and lawlessly assaulted. Oh, and this was over a year before the Colonies treasonously seceded. As for the vandals and thieves who conducted the Boston Tea Party, well, they performed their unique piece of thuggery over a full year and a half before the Colonies treasonously seceded. I find that very, very, telling. There is also this act of violence, perpetrated in 1772, 4 years before the colonial slavers seceded:

"In 1772, a Rhode Island branch of the Sons of Liberty led British customs officials on a chase that grounded their vessel, the HMS Gaspée. Before high tide could free it, the mob boarded, looted, and burned the ship, then shot and imprisoned the captain."

I find that very telling too, because, as I mentioned earlier, it happened 4 years before the colonies seceded and established a slave republic. Very telling indeed.

The "Pine Tree" Riot was also telling, inasmuch as it happened four years before the Colonies seceded. Below is a description of how a lawless colonial mob treated a New Hampshire Sheriff (Whiting):

"At dawn the next day Mudgett led between 20[1][4] and 30-40 men[3] to the tavern. Whiting was still in bed, and Mudgett burst in on him. With their faces blackened with soot for disguise, more than 20 townsmen rushed into Whiting's room. They began to beat him with tree branch switches, giving one lash for every tree being contested. The sheriff tried to grab his pistols, but he was thoroughly outnumbered. Rioters grabbed him by his arms and legs, hoisted him up, face to the floor, while others continued to mercilessly assault him with tree switches. Whiting later reported that he thought the men would surely kill him. Quigley was also pulled from his room and received the same treatment from another group of townsmen. The sheriff and deputy's horses were brought around to the inn door. The rioters then cut off the ears and shaved the manes and tails of the horses, after which Whiting and Quigley were forced to ride out of town through a gauntlet of jeering townspeople, shouted at and slapped down the road towards Goffstown.[1][2][3][5]

Very telling. And not especially peaceful.

Andrew Oliver was the Lieutenant Governor of colonial Massachusetts in 1764:

"Before the evening a mob burned Oliver's property on Kilby street, then moved on to his house. There they beheaded the effigy and stoned the house as its occupants looked out in horror. They then moved to nearby Fort Hill were they built a large fire and burned what was left of the effigy. Most of the crowd dissipated at that point, however McIntosh and crew, then under cover of darkness, ransacked Oliver's abandoned home until midnight."

And this was over ten years before the Colonies traitorously seceded. Very telling indeed. Amazing even.
 
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BuckeyeWarrior

Corporal
Joined
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Location
Ohio
Don't forget that 73 British soldiers were murdered by the terrorist colonials at Lexington and Concord, and another 174 were violently and lawlessly assaulted. Oh, and this was over a year before the Colonies treasonously seceded. As for the vandals and thieves who conducted the Boston Tea Party, well, they performed their unique piece of thuggery over a full year and a half before the Colonies treasonously seceded. I find that very, very, telling. There is also this act of violence, perpetrated in 1772, 4 years before the colonial slavers seceded:

"In 1772, a Rhode Island branch of the Sons of Liberty led British customs officials on a chase that grounded their vessel, the HMS Gaspée. Before high tide could free it, the mob boarded, looted, and burned the ship, then shot and imprisoned the captain."

I find that very telling too, because, as I mentioned earlier, it happened 4 years before the colonies seceded and established a slave republic. Very telling indeed.

The "Pine Tree" Riot was also telling, inasmuch as it happened four years before the Colonies seceded. Below is a description of how a lawless colonial mob treated a New Hampshire Sheriff (Whiting):

"At dawn the next day Mudgett led between 20[1][4] and 30-40 men[3] to the tavern. Whiting was still in bed, and Mudgett burst in on him. With their faces blackened with soot for disguise, more than 20 townsmen rushed into Whiting's room. They began to beat him with tree branch switches, giving one lash for every tree being contested. The sheriff tried to grab his pistols, but he was thoroughly outnumbered. Rioters grabbed him by his arms and legs, hoisted him up, face to the floor, while others continued to mercilessly assault him with tree switches. Whiting later reported that he thought the men would surely kill him. Quigley was also pulled from his room and received the same treatment from another group of townsmen. The sheriff and deputy's horses were brought around to the inn door. The rioters then cut off the ears and shaved the manes and tails of the horses, after which Whiting and Quigley were forced to ride out of town through a gauntlet of jeering townspeople, shouted at and slapped down the road towards Goffstown.[1][2][3][5]

Very telling. And not especially peaceful.

Andrew Oliver was the Lieutenant Governor of colonial Massachusetts in 1764:

"Before the evening a mob burned Oliver's property on Kilby street, then moved on to his house. There they beheaded the effigy and stoned the house as its occupants looked out in horror. They then moved to nearby Fort Hill were they built a large fire and burned what was left of the effigy. Most of the crowd dissipated at that point, however McIntosh and crew, then under cover of darkness, ransacked Oliver's abandoned home until midnight."

And this was over ten years before the Colonies traitorously seceded. Very telling indeed. Amazing even.
That’s certainly an interesting take on the revolutionary war era actions of the founders. However, this thread is to discuss if what the southern rebels did in 1860 was peaceful. If you want to start your own thread comparing and contrasting the actions of the rebels of 1776 and of 1860 feel free. I think that could be very interesting.
 

Duncan

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
That’s certainly an interesting take on the revolutionary war era actions of the founders. However, this thread is to discuss if what the southern rebels did in 1860 was peaceful. If you want to start your own thread comparing and contrasting the actions of the rebels of 1776 and of 1860 feel free. I think that could be very interesting.

The point was simply that the the Confederate States Founders were more peaceful and law-abiding than the United States Founders.
 

BuckeyeWarrior

Corporal
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Location
Ohio
The point was simply that the the Confederate States Founders were more peaceful and law-abiding than the United States Founders.
I understand that and as I said that would certainly make for an interesting thread. However, this thread is to look specifically at if, as many claim, the southern rebels attempt at disunion were peaceful. Not if it was more or less peaceful than any other rebellion.
 
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Duncan

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
I understand that and as I said that would certainly make for an interesting thread. However, this thread is to look specifically at if, as many claim, the southern rebels attempt at disunion were peaceful. Not if it was more or less peaceful than any other rebellion.

I understand. Except the implication of the thread is that some behaviors of the seceding States somehow compromised or undermined their honest efforts to pursue political independence and self-government, and therefore those behaviors somehow made them less deserving political independence and self-government. That implication is false, and thus the comparison between the independence movements of 1776 and 1861. The response is perfectly appropriate.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
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Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
The Confederate secessions were remarkably disciplined, orderly, restrained, and peaceful, especially if a comparison is made between those secessions and the secession of the American Colonies from the British Empire.

We are doing comparisons with 1776 and 1860? Not even close.

As for "remarkable peaceful" or "restrained" or "orderly", heck, a bunch of these States jumped the gun, committed crimes and war like acts even BEFORE they had seceded!


In that case the traitorous rebels were violently assaulting and murdering British soldiers long before July 4, 1776. And then there was the 1.7 million dollars (adjusted) in tea that the vandals and thieves who perpetrated the Boston Tea Party destroyed.

They called themselves "rebels" for good reason and the British made it plain they felt the same way.


By comparison, the Confederates looked like a Church Choir singing Hymns on Sunday morning.

Again, not even close. Theft of property is a sin from what I recall of my church days. Taking US soldiers prisoner is found in what church hymn? Stealing federal payrolls, robbing federal mint, stealing government ships, arms and forts, is not in any prayer book of any holy denomination I have ever seen. Then trying to kill people with "Thou shalt not kill" mentioned somewhere, doesn't seem all that peaceful to me.
But, hey, one man's religion can be another man's heresy.

Unionblue
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
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Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Don't forget that 73 British soldiers were murdered by the terrorist colonials at Lexington and Concord, and another 174 were violently and lawlessly assaulted. Oh, and this was over a year before the Colonies treasonously seceded. As for the vandals and thieves who conducted the Boston Tea Party, well, they performed their unique piece of thuggery over a full year and a half before the Colonies treasonously seceded. I find that very, very, telling. There is also this act of violence, perpetrated in 1772, 4 years before the colonial slavers seceded:

"In 1772, a Rhode Island branch of the Sons of Liberty led British customs officials on a chase that grounded their vessel, the HMS Gaspée. Before high tide could free it, the mob boarded, looted, and burned the ship, then shot and imprisoned the captain."

I find that very telling too, because, as I mentioned earlier, it happened 4 years before the colonies seceded and established a slave republic. Very telling indeed.

The "Pine Tree" Riot was also telling, inasmuch as it happened four years before the Colonies seceded. Below is a description of how a lawless colonial mob treated a New Hampshire Sheriff (Whiting):

"At dawn the next day Mudgett led between 20[1][4] and 30-40 men[3] to the tavern. Whiting was still in bed, and Mudgett burst in on him. With their faces blackened with soot for disguise, more than 20 townsmen rushed into Whiting's room. They began to beat him with tree branch switches, giving one lash for every tree being contested. The sheriff tried to grab his pistols, but he was thoroughly outnumbered. Rioters grabbed him by his arms and legs, hoisted him up, face to the floor, while others continued to mercilessly assault him with tree switches. Whiting later reported that he thought the men would surely kill him. Quigley was also pulled from his room and received the same treatment from another group of townsmen. The sheriff and deputy's horses were brought around to the inn door. The rioters then cut off the ears and shaved the manes and tails of the horses, after which Whiting and Quigley were forced to ride out of town through a gauntlet of jeering townspeople, shouted at and slapped down the road towards Goffstown.[1][2][3][5]

Very telling. And not especially peaceful.

Andrew Oliver was the Lieutenant Governor of colonial Massachusetts in 1764:

"Before the evening a mob burned Oliver's property on Kilby street, then moved on to his house. There they beheaded the effigy and stoned the house as its occupants looked out in horror. They then moved to nearby Fort Hill were they built a large fire and burned what was left of the effigy. Most of the crowd dissipated at that point, however McIntosh and crew, then under cover of darkness, ransacked Oliver's abandoned home until midnight."

And this was over ten years before the Colonies traitorously seceded. Very telling indeed. Amazing even.
Needs to be on a Revolutionary War forum. Other than that, this is just historical sand in the eyes to derail the thread's topic.

Unionblue
 
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unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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The point was simply that the the Confederate States Founders were more peaceful and law-abiding than the United States Founders.
And yet still broke the law, ignored the results of a free and fair election and then tried to kill US soldiers.

I guess "peaceful" is determined by which end of the cannon you are on during a "peaceful secession."
 
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