Was Lee's second invasion of the North to soon after the restructure of AoNV?

Scott1967

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Lee's victory at Chancellorsville was probably his greatest achievement , However it came at a cost the loss of Jackson and the restructure of the Army in the aftermath may have cost him dearly at Gettysburg.

Two new corps commanders in Richard Ewell and A.P Hill and a whole new corps meant that Lee was invading the North fully aware at some stage he would be facing the AoP that would have superior numbers with a tried and battle tested army structure but low in confidence or did Lee think he would be facing Hooker?.

Was this the right time for Lee to invade the North with two rookie corps commanders and a total restructure of the AoNV?.

Did the restructure of AoNV play a significant role in what happened and should Lee have waited or was the confidence of the AoNV so high that Lee felt it couldn't be beaten?.

We know what happened in Hindsight but I've often questioned what Lee's motives were for the second invasion and was it really necessary.

Looking forward to peoples views on these questions.
 
Lee certainly felt a second invasion was necessary but like all 3 days at Gettysburg it does not go according to his plan.

After all he wants Bureaugard brought up from South Carolina and have them combined with much of D.H. Hill's command in North Carolina to create effectively a fourth Corps that will force Hooker to stay in place around Fredericksburg/ force him to only send a few Corps north that can be destroyed in detail.

How sensible this idea is another matter for it leaves the Carolina's open and it never happens... and due to spies the north knows it doesn't happen.

It does however make an intriguing 'what if' and shows just how much Robert E Lee is willing to go 'all in' in one last great attempt at victory for it is entirely all or nothing.

As to the command structure. Lee had wanted to reorganise before Chancellorsville but couldnt think of a way to do it that didnt upset Longstreet and Jackson.
 
Leaving aside the issue of whether the Pennsylvania invasion should have been attempted at all, from a timing viewpoint, Lee made the right decision. Despite the loss of Jackson, and the subsequent corps reorganization, Lee and the ANV had momentum on their side. After pushing the AOTP across the Rappahannock after the victory at Chancellorsville, the logical next move was to get the federals on the run and bring the war to northern soil across the Potomac. Given the fact that prime campaign season was in swing and the motivation of the ANV was at its highest point, Lee had no reason to delay his northern incursion. Moreover, by Lee's own reasoning, it was hoped that such a move at that time would draw federal forces away from the western front and ease the tightening pressure on Vicksburg.
 
Lee's victory at Chancellorsville was probably his greatest achievement , However it came at a cost the loss of Jackson and the restructure of the Army in the aftermath may have cost him dearly at Gettysburg.

Two new corps commanders in Richard Ewell and A.P Hill and a whole new corps meant that Lee was invading the North fully aware at some stage he would be facing the AoP that would have superior numbers with a tried and battle tested army structure but low in confidence or did Lee think he would be facing Hooker?.

Was this the right time for Lee to invade the North with two rookie corps commanders and a total restructure of the AoNV?.

Did the restructure of AoNV play a significant role in what happened and should Lee have waited or was the confidence of the AoNV so high that Lee felt it couldn't be beaten?.

We know what happened in Hindsight but I've often questioned what Lee's motives were for the second invasion and was it really necessary.

Looking forward to peoples views on these questions.
Lee had to invade Pennsylvania by July and there as no time to waste. The situation at Vicksburg was in dire straits by June of 1863 and it was just a matter if time before a reinforced AoC mounts an offensive in Central Tennessee.Once Vicksburg falls that leaves the Union Army with ten's of thousands of freed up troops and the Confederacy with thousands of troops incapacitated in Pow camps. If Lee just twiddles his thumps in Virginia his troops will eventually be called to fight in Tennessee potentially under General Bragg.
If Lee us going to mount an offensive he must do it quickly before Rosecrans mount's an offensive and Grant and Sherman's troops are freed from Vicksburg.
President Davis had to refuse Lee's request for transferring General Beaugaurd 's troops from North Carolina because General Burnside side in New Berne, could then seize the critical railroad junction at Goldsboro.
Leftyhunter
 
Did the restructure of AoNV play a significant role in what happened and should Lee have waited or was the confidence of the AoNV so high that Lee felt it couldn't be beaten?.
I'm sure Lee would have liked more time to get the ANV reorganized more optimally, but as Donald Rumsfeld said, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.” Now you may not have always agreed with old "Rummy" when he was Secretary of Defense, but he obviously got that one right.
 
Lee's invasion was raised as a response to Davis' request that Lee despatch a corps to Johnston to help relieve Vicksburg. Lee argued against it before Davis and the Confederate Sect. of War. Lee felt that threatening Washington would compel the Union to halt Grant and have Grant send men east. That worked as well as Hood's strategy of cutting of Sherman and marching on Nashville. Sending Longstreet or some other corps could have prompted Johnston to at least make a feint or threaten Snyder's Bluff (beyond which was Grant's supply depots).

Lee was too myopic. Virginia first, Virginia always and defend the capitol. Both Grant and Lincoln knew that capturing Richmond wouldn't end the war -- destroying the Confederate armies in the field would. Remember, after Grant's USCT marched into Richmond, the Confederacy didn't fall. Lee had to capitulate first before that would happen. This is something that escaped Clinton and especially Howe during the American Revolution. They had to destroy the Continental Army and so long as Washington kept it alive, the British would never win. Napoleon missed that point too and while he captured Moscow, he coudn't defeat Russia.
 
The timing wasn't really his choice. He had to reorganize the army and he had to do something to either take the initiative or dispatch troops to the Western Theater. Though events turned out badly for him, I think Lee made the right call. Had he reorganized the army and waited, the Army of the Potomac would have launched another offensive before too much longer and Lee would have been forced into another Chancellorsville-situation, in which he might had won the battle but was unlikely to achieve anything decisive.
 
It would appear that during the Battle of Gettysburg, Lee had some control issues. I have never been sure if this resulted from Lee not being use to commanding three Corps, or if the Corps commanders did not communicate well. Still I see where the three Corps did not work in unison. I think on day three Lee might have succeeded if all the Corps would have attacked in a more coordinated way.
 
If Lee’s intention was to draw Union forces away from Vicksburg was he successful?
No, oh He attracted a lot Union forces, but Vicksburg fell. His forces suffered a stunning defeat against a Union general who had been in command for less than a week.
If his mission was to cause a political crisis for Lincoln and see McClellen win, was he successful?
Nope.
But, if Lee’s intention was to resupply Richmond with cattle, hogs and much needed produce, all was not lost.

Chancellorsville is usually considered Lee’s greatest success. But his retreat from the wreckage of Gettysburg, the salvaging of the remnants of his forces. The preservation of the booty, the wagons of wounded and goods stretching for miles and miles, truly a Herculean effort.
There are few generals who could suffer such a defeat and keep his command or the respect of his men.
Lee’s stature grew in spite of Gettysburg.
 
Another factor Lee considered was regarding the crops in both Virginia and Pennsylvania which were ripe for harvest in June and July. He wanted to ease the pressure on the crops in the Shenandoah Valley and feed on crops in the north.
Regards
David
 
If Lee’s intention was to draw Union forces away from Vicksburg was he successful?
No, oh He attracted a lot Union forces, but Vicksburg fell. His forces suffered a stunning defeat against a Union general who had been in command for less than a week.
If his mission was to cause a political crisis for Lincoln and see McClellen win, was he successful?
Nope.
But, if Lee’s intention was to resupply Richmond with cattle, hogs and much needed produce, all was not lost.

Chancellorsville is usually considered Lee’s greatest success. But his retreat from the wreckage of Gettysburg, the salvaging of the remnants of his forces. The preservation of the booty, the wagons of wounded and goods stretching for miles and miles, truly a Herculean effort.
There are few generals who could suffer such a defeat and keep his command or the respect of his men.
Lee’s stature grew in spite of Gettysburg.
A lot of hindsight. Had Lee sustained a victory, the answers likely change. Lee could afford to repel Union forces in Va for so long.
 
It certainly goes against all military common sense, to reorganize your army on the fly, so to speak. It seems fantastic, to me, that Lee would engage in a full scale military operation, deep into enemy territory. while still in the midst of reorganizing his whole army.

I have read from various sources, that the whole invasion of Pa. reeks of dangerous overconfidence, from the lowest private soldier and, IMO, most fatally, to Lee himself.
 
It would appear that during the Battle of Gettysburg, Lee had some control issues. I have never been sure if this resulted from Lee not being use to commanding three Corps, or if the Corps commanders did not communicate well. Still I see where the three Corps did not work in unison. I think on day three Lee might have succeeded if all the Corps would have attacked in a more coordinated way.

He certainly did Bill , It was Heth who started the battle of Gettysburg a new division commander in a new Corps it was Ewell a new Corps commander who failed to exploit the confederate gains on the first day and 2/3 of the fateful assault on the third day was again with two new division commanders (replacements for wounded) and again the third Corps.

Its always been imo that the third corps preformed very poorly at Gettysburg and the second not much better coincidence? Both had new commanders and in the case of the third 3 new divisions with 2-3 new division commanders.
 
Lee's victory at Chancellorsville was probably his greatest achievement , However it came at a cost the loss of Jackson and the restructure of the Army in the aftermath may have cost him dearly at Gettysburg.

Two new corps commanders in Richard Ewell and A.P Hill and a whole new corps meant that Lee was invading the North fully aware at some stage he would be facing the AoP that would have superior numbers with a tried and battle tested army structure but low in confidence or did Lee think he would be facing Hooker?.

Was this the right time for Lee to invade the North with two rookie corps commanders and a total restructure of the AoNV?.

Did the restructure of AoNV play a significant role in what happened and should Lee have waited or was the confidence of the AoNV so high that Lee felt it couldn't be beaten?.

We know what happened in Hindsight but I've often questioned what Lee's motives were for the second invasion and was it really necessary.

Looking forward to peoples views on these questions.
Some very good points made by all who have replied. I agree with others that Lee's hand was forced by the events at Vicksburg and the fact that both Lee and Davis wanted to score a major Confederate success with the upcoming elections in the North. I think most would agree that Lee's communication with his corps commanders left a lot to be desired at Gettysburg.

I think without question Jackson would have performed better than Ewell with command of the second corps at Gettsyburg. Ewell's lack of aggressiveness on the first day of the battle badly hurt the Confederate cause. In hindsight, once the Union forces seized the high ground, Lee's tactical choices to fight the battle were greatly diminished.

As another poster pointed out, Lee's timing was influenced quite simply by the weather. Lee wanted to strike while the weather was warm, the roads were in good shape, and the fact that Lee wanted to forage off the land as his lines of supply became more extended. Lee also knew that as the war drew out, the North's sizable advantage in numbers would lead to a war of attrition. Lee wanted to strike a decisive blow into the heartland of the North and thereby reduce the resolve of the people of the North to continue the war. Again, it was hoped that such a blow would swing the Northern electorate against Lincoln.
 
Again, it was hoped that such a blow would swing the Northern electorate against Lincoln.
One of the constants of the southern leadership's mishandling of the war was a gross underestimation of the northerners' will to support the government war effort. Even the northern Democrats, 50% or more of whom were "war Democrats" supported the war effort. I think any belief by Lee and Davis that a victory in the north would bring down the government was a pipe dream. Unless Lee won a massive victory and bagged the whole AoP, Vicksburg fell the next day and would have easily offset any ordinary victory in the minds of the northerners.
 
Lee's #1 goal, imo, is to not let them take any of the ANV and send it west to either Bragg or Vicksburg. Lee was extremely territorial and protective of his army.

I don't blame him for protecting his army. After all, who would use his men better than he would? He was the only confederate commander who had demonstrated he could successfully lead an army. His men would be wasted anywhere else.
 
It certainly goes against all military common sense, to reorganize your army on the fly, so to speak. It seems fantastic, to me, that Lee would engage in a full scale military operation, deep into enemy territory. while still in the midst of reorganizing his whole army.

I have read from various sources, that the whole invasion of Pa. reeks of dangerous overconfidence, from the lowest private soldier and, IMO, most fatally, to Lee himself.
IMHO Victory Disease. Lee had won consistently against inferior Union generals or in the Case of Hooker's disorientation from a near miss at Chancellorsville good luck. Why not this time.
 
It certainly goes against all military common sense, to reorganize your army on the fly, so to speak. It seems fantastic, to me, that Lee would engage in a full scale military operation, deep into enemy territory. while still in the midst of reorganizing his whole army.

I have read from various sources, that the whole invasion of Pa. reeks of dangerous overconfidence, from the lowest private soldier and, IMO, most fatally, to Lee himself.

I have to disagree. It is often necessary to reorganize the army on the fly. Commanders get killed and wounded and have to be replaced and your opponent isn't going to take a time-out to allow you time to replace them and to reorganize.

It happened on both sides, and often during the same campaign.

Here's a look at the key men who were new to their jobs in the Army of the Potomac at the Battle of Gettysburg:
https://studycivilwar.wordpress.com...omac-at-the-start-of-the-gettysburg-campaign/

Gettysburg would lead to Meade reorganizing the Army of the Potomac. He was fortunate in that he had the luxury of doing this during a lull. Lee didn't have that luxury and was forced to do so by circumstances. After all, he couldn't send a message to Lincoln to say, "Time out. Don't send any troops south until I let you know my reorganization is complete and I've had a chance to test it." He reorganized the army to make it easier for his corps commanders to control their corps. This was a function of what's called span of control. Jackson wasn't there anymore, and he wasn't ever going to be there again, so Lee was stuck with replacing him with someone. This was smack dab in the middle of the campaign "season," meaning if he didn't take the initiative the Federals would.
 
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