Virginia Civil War Belt Buckle...Original and Who Wore It?

Tredegar

Cadet
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Hi again folks!
I picked up this belt buckle last week at a local auction where it had not been particularly advertised, came in a modern small glass display case.

DSCN3011.JPG

DSCN3009.JPG

I've had a chance to research this piece, but I am still uncertain if it is real or not, from the Civil War period or not, and what it signified?
I collect a number of old things and I have some experience in determining repro or not and I have to say the fine detail, patina, material, and how it presents with the belt attachment broken all looks the part.
It looks stamped and not a recast, but in these times, artisan can make just about anything look authentic.
That said, I'm sure you have to assume repro with these things until proven otherwise and last time I was here thinking I had a cannonball mold, it turned out to be for making a pastry. :wink:
I'd appreciate any assistance and really would like to know more about what it represents, real or no.
Thanks, Chris
 

Attachments

  • DSCN3013.JPG
    DSCN3013.JPG
    150 KB · Views: 231
  • DSCN3015.JPG
    DSCN3015.JPG
    211.1 KB · Views: 201
  • DSCN3016.JPG
    DSCN3016.JPG
    199.8 KB · Views: 365
Last edited by a moderator:
I am far from an expert. This is a Virginia buckle. In my copy "Confederate Belt Buckles & Plates" by Steve Mullinax, the belt hook is slightly different than the ones shown, but I do not have an expanded edition. There can be different hook types that would not be shown as there were many makers. In "Repro Buckles of the Civil War" by Howard Crouch on page 111 there is a picture of a Hanover Brass buckle with a similar hook that seems to be in a slightly different place. Crouch points out that the buckle is so finely cast that it appears stampped. Of course if Gary Williams at Hanover Brass made it that way it might be because his original had that kind of hook. The problem is Confederate buckles are so expensive that crooks will go to great effort to make them appear original. Some are so good that even the experts argue about them. There is also the problem that if something was lost in a reenactment fifty years ago and found recently it would be hard to tell from something lost one hundred and fifty years ago. I have seen such items in good dug collections. In any case that is a really good looking buckle that I would be proud of.
 
Hi again folks!
I picked up this belt buckle last week at a local auction where it had not been particularly advertised, came in a modern small glass display case.

View attachment 124724
View attachment 124723
I've had a chance to research this piece, but I am still uncertain if it is real or not, from the Civil War period or not, and what it signified?
I collect a number of old things and I have some experience in determining repro or not and I have to say the fine detail, patina, material, and how it presents with the belt attachment broken all looks the part.
It looks stamped and not a recast, but in these times, artisan can make just about anything look authentic.
That said, I'm sure you have to assume repro with these things until proven otherwise and last time I was here thinking I had a cannonball mold, it turned out to be for making a pastry. :wink:
I'd appreciate any assistance and really would like to know more about what it represents, real or no.
Thanks, Chris
Unfortunately the placement of the hook is inconsistent with documented examples, in addition, the lack of solder on the opposite corners for the bar attachment is troubling. These buckles almost always had a tremendous amount of solder in the obverse corners opposite the hook and even so many times failed. I viewed Mullinex, O'Donnell, Kerksis and Gavin and could not find one with the hook placed as such. Never say never, but as a very knowledgeable collector once told me, never pay more than the cost of a Happy Meal, if you're not sure, it sounds as if you bought it right.
 
Hi again folks!
I picked up this belt buckle last week at a local auction where it had not been particularly advertised, came in a modern small glass display case.

View attachment 124724
View attachment 124723
I've had a chance to research this piece, but I am still uncertain if it is real or not, from the Civil War period or not, and what it signified?
I collect a number of old things and I have some experience in determining repro or not and I have to say the fine detail, patina, material, and how it presents with the belt attachment broken all looks the part.
It looks stamped and not a recast, but in these times, artisan can make just about anything look authentic.
That said, I'm sure you have to assume repro with these things until proven otherwise and last time I was here thinking I had a cannonball mold, it turned out to be for making a pastry. :wink:
I'd appreciate any assistance and really would like to know more about what it represents, real or no.
Thanks, Chris
Does it look as if the hook has been moved closer to the gutter edge and re-soldered? The hook should be soldered on the obverse of the laurel wreath, if there are solder marks there and the gutter corners, there is a better chance of this being legit. After looking at Relicman's fake buckle reference, it is scary what is out there. I collect Maryland and the recent fakes have been alarming.

http://www.relicman.com/fakes/zfakeCon431to433VirginiaRectangle.htm
 
Hi.
I appreciate the replies.
Yes, I'm proud to own it having living in VA since I was 6, my relatives from TN, one of which was captured on Lookout Mountain.
Yes, I got it for the right price not being sure if it were real, and for the price less than a repro would cost.
There is solder on the opposite corners and a depression where the belt holder bars would have been, not a lot, but it's there.
The attachment of the tongue is also on the edge and not as inward as the original I pulled from the Hanover Brass Foundry Website (attached), but the tongue itself is spot on as is how it was attached with solder only on the inside.
There are known varieties of this already and I'm not trying to talk it into being real, but if you weren't limited by my camera's resolution and you had it in your hands, you might see it differently.
It's also dirty, particularly on the back side where it settled.
The soldering is personal, hand applied variable and they're all unique.
Gary Williams and his museum is not far from me and I emailed him in hopes to pay a visit soon.
Thanks again!
 

Attachments

  • 3524749_orig.jpg
    3524749_orig.jpg
    42.9 KB · Views: 192
Majority of these were pre-war state militia use. Most made by two NY firms under contract pre-war. These were intended for use with the white webbing belts that Virginia Militia was commonly using, hence they have the cross bar on one side. This was habitually quite fragile and frequently broke off.... Many of those excavated are missing this bar. These plates were originally made of stamped brass, also not made nor intended for use with leather belts. They were not made with the three prong back like many other waist belt plates are... Reenactor sutlers sell this pronged type made of cast brass, and hoards of reenactors wear them in this fashion for years, but they actually didn't exist in that configuration... nor designed for use on leather belts...

Here is an original of this plate still with its original webbing belt... a battlefield pick up early in the war..
os1273p1.jpg

os1273p3.jpg


As mentioned Gary at Hanover Brass back in the latter 1970's made at least one run of these with the more correct backing fixtures... I actually have one of his earlier ones made at that time... They were however made of thin cast brass rather than sheet brass... He did a rather good job with those... He was not attempting to produce "fakes" but making more accurate reproductions for use... This one below is a reproduction... So can see that even to a trained eye I can sometimes be a challenge to confirm either way....
98va.jpg

98va2.jpg
 
I collect old pre WWII bicycles and there is repro stuff in our hobby as well.
One thing I look for is, if a good image/inspection is available are the subtle defects that are transferred over to the subsequent generations and I do not see the similarities between my piece and the attached photo of the GW repro (thank you btw).
Mine is definitely not a thin cast brass, and it definitely has some weight (although not unusually heavy) and firmness to it and the material also looks different and not just aging.
If its a fake, someone went to great lengths to get the detail right...except attaching the tongue on the periphery. :wink:
 
Last edited:
Back
Top