Video Discussion 52: Trial and Execution of Lincoln's Conspirators

Monday evening chat is hard for me, but I've just watched this entire video.

What a load of trash, in both error and omission. I've never heard of the presenter before, but am inspired to join Monday's chat, if I possibly can. We need less of this stuff at CivilWarTalk.

See you tomorrow.
 
There's a thread that was just bumped into the current threads (probably because of this video and chat topic) which basically pretty much confirms what this speaker said. It's well worth reading. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/was-mary-surratts-hanging-justice-or-was-it-wrong.105294/
Page 7 has a video by Dr. Kate Larson that is well worth watching. She started out thinking that Mary Surratt was framed, but after reviewing all the evidence (which is all available in the National Archives) came to the conclusion that Mary was most definitely guilty. I found her talk much more convincing than the speaker in our video. I'm not too sure why either would be considered a "load of trash," though.

Now that I reached the end of it, my suspicions are confirmed. Thanks, @War Horse, for bumping that thread.
 
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Now that we have different views on the video, that will make for a lively discussion. I will be curious to read what you all are thinking! I must admit that I'm influenced by Redford's movie about the Lincoln conspiracy and that I'm still not sure if her hanging was indeed justice ...
 
Recommended in the thread I linked to above: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/was-mary-surratts-hanging-justice-or-was-it-wrong.105294
By our @E_just_E: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0375759743/?tag=civilwartalkc-20
Dr. Kate Clifford Larson's book specifically on Mary Surrat: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MCA5U4M/?tag=civilwartalkc-20 (Redford's movie was based on this book)

Recommended by the lecturer in the video for the chat: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0813191513/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

I have not read any of these, but my own choice would start with the one recommended by @E_just_E. Anyone have recommendations for books they've read?
 
I suspect we may continue the discussion here after the transcript of the chat is posted and with amweiner here?
I've gotten fascinated enough that I want to read a lot more!
 
transcript:
Apr 10, 2017 9:29 PM - MaryDee: Anyone there yet?
Apr 10, 2017 9:30 PM - Jamieva: im here
Apr 10, 2017 9:30 PM - MaryDee: Hi, Jamie!
Apr 10, 2017 9:30 PM - JerseyBart: Hi all
Apr 10, 2017 9:31 PM - MaryDee: Hi, JB1
Apr 10, 2017 9:31 PM - Jamieva: hello all
Apr 10, 2017 9:31 PM - MaryDee: (that was supposed to be a !)
Apr 10, 2017 9:33 PM - JerseyBart: Pretty interesting video..let's get started
Apr 10, 2017 9:33 PM - Jamieva: ok
Apr 10, 2017 9:34 PM - JerseyBart: The Mary Suratt dilemma was par for the course for the time.
Apr 10, 2017 9:34 PM - Drew: Yep
Apr 10, 2017 9:35 PM - Jamieva: yes
Apr 10, 2017 9:35 PM - Jamieva: it was one of the main points of the conspirator movie
Apr 10, 2017 9:35 PM - Drew: Are we going to focus on the video?
Apr 10, 2017 9:36 PM - JerseyBart: Women to mature/ adult enough to be part if a conspiracy, yet she was and yet her execution was immediately regretted because she was an "immature, childlike" woman.
Apr 10, 2017 9:36 PM - MaryDee: We should,at least to start.
Apr 10, 2017 9:36 PM - JerseyBart: To should be not
Apr 10, 2017 9:36 PM - Jamieva: i liked how he pointed out little things that did not put her in a good light
Apr 10, 2017 9:36 PM - MaryDee: Yet she's the woman who coped with a gambling husband, took over his business and ran it succesfully after he died. Doesn't sound childlike to me!
Apr 10, 2017 9:37 PM - Jamieva: no mourning drapes on the house
Apr 10, 2017 9:37 PM - JerseyBart: Drew...these discussions are a bit of a free for all, chime in with whatever you'd like.
Apr 10, 2017 9:37 PM - Drew: OK, thanks, Bart.
Apr 10, 2017 9:37 PM - Jamieva: drew we often get disrailed but bring anything up that adds to teh discussion
Apr 10, 2017 9:38 PM - JerseyBart: Mary...I teach ancient and us history. I often start off discussions with, "sorry ladies" to my female students.
Apr 10, 2017 9:39 PM - Drew: OK, the presenter in the video states very clearly that Mary Surratt was "guilty." He doesn't even mention the clemency recommendation from the Tribunal.
Apr 10, 2017 9:39 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hello
Apr 10, 2017 9:40 PM - JerseyBart: Was clemency attempt based on evidence of innocence of that she was a woman?
Apr 10, 2017 9:40 PM - MaryDee: Wasn't the recommendation for clemency primarily because she was female?
Apr 10, 2017 9:40 PM - JerseyBart: hi Tennessee..
Apr 10, 2017 9:40 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hey JB
Apr 10, 2017 9:40 PM - MaryDee: Hi, Tennessee!
Apr 10, 2017 9:40 PM - Jamieva: age and sex was the clemency background
Apr 10, 2017 9:41 PM - Drew: Mary was convicted on circumstantial evidence, Bart. That's all.
Apr 10, 2017 9:41 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hi Mary! How's it going?
Apr 10, 2017 9:41 PM - MaryDee: Pretty well, thank you!
Apr 10, 2017 9:42 PM - MaryDee: So were the others, except Powell/Paine and the stagehand.
Apr 10, 2017 9:42 PM - Jamieva: but they had a whole pile of circumstantial evidence
Apr 10, 2017 9:42 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Sorry but I can only stay for about 15 minutes, Better Call Saul season premier comes on 9 p.m. central
Apr 10, 2017 9:43 PM - Drew: Jamie, circumstantial evidence doesn't count in a capital murder trial...
Apr 10, 2017 9:43 PM - MaryDee: actually, circumstantial evidence, if strong, is more reliable than eyewitness testimony I wish Pat young could have been here.
Apr 10, 2017 9:43 PM - JerseyBart: No problem Tennessee. I rush in from watching Superior Donuts on cbs.
Apr 10, 2017 9:44 PM - MaryDee: And I keep switching screens on the off chance that that stupid giraffe may finally be calving.
Apr 10, 2017 9:44 PM - JerseyBart: They conspired to murder the president and cabinet. Enough circumstantial evidence would do the trick obviously.
Apr 10, 2017 9:45 PM - JerseyBart: And not all were executed.
Apr 10, 2017 9:45 PM - Drew: The presenter in the video, without any apparent sense of irony, said at 33:10, "the government just wanted a fair trial, so they could execute the accused." Not exact quote, but close enough.
Apr 10, 2017 9:45 PM - Jamieva: if payne doesn't show up at her house when the soldiers are there is a huge what if in this
Apr 10, 2017 9:45 PM - MaryDee: There was plenty of evidence that Mary met with Booth privately a number of times, she took firearms and other supplies for him out to the tavern.
Apr 10, 2017 9:46 PM - MaryDee: And she was a smart businesswoman who had to know what was going on.
Apr 10, 2017 9:46 PM - MaryDee: And the Paine/Powell thing.
Apr 10, 2017 9:47 PM - MaryDee: I think that's what the government did want. Of course using a military tribunal rather than a court was not a good thing, and the Supreme Court ruled so afterwards.
 
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:47 PM - Pat Young: Hi
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:47 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hey JB thank you for the teacher resources thread, when I take AP History next year I'll be sure to show my teacher those
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - MaryDee: Hi, Pat! I thought you were at a seder tonight!
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - JerseyBart: Hi Pat. Sedan over?
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - Jamieva: and there;s pat!
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hey Pat! How's it going
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - Jamieva: yes mary but 2 years after they were hanged right?
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - Pat Young: Sedar over
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - MaryDee: Yes, far too late!
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:48 PM - JerseyBart: My pleasure Tennessee. I'm flattered you'd offer it up to your teacher.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:49 PM - Drew: Payne (correctly spelled) swore that Mary Surratt was not guilty of charges against her
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:49 PM - Jamieva: am i the only one that saw the movie the conspirator? its an interesting take on this
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:49 PM - MaryDee: Pat, can you explain about circumstantial evidence? Which is what convicted most of the conspirators.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:49 PM - Jamieva: not trying to sidetrack the conversation
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:50 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Haha well I'll just see about maybe even getting him/her to join this forum JB. :hungry:
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:50 PM - Pat Young: Many convictions are based on what is called circumstantial evidence.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:50 PM - MaryDee: The book I mentioned earlier today, by Kate Clifford Larson, was the basis for the movie.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - JerseyBart: Conspiracy punishment is rather stiff and strict. Conspire and you're guilty of all of it unless you tell authorities before the plan is acted upon.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - Pat Young: We often don't have direct evidence
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - MaryDee: I have not seen the movie.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - Jamieva: marydee did you see the movie? i saw it on netflix about a year ago.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - Pat Young: I don't know what the conspiracy laws were in the 1860s.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - JerseyBart: That would be great Tennessee.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - Drew: The Kangaroo Court issued it's verdict.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - Jamieva: exactly jb and he pointed that out in the video
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:51 PM - Pat Young: Ed Steers implies that they were similar to what they are today
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:52 PM - JerseyBart: And all the Joey's were punished in some form.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:52 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: To be honest George Atzerodt might've been doing a favor for the country. Johnson in my opinion went too easy on the South.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:52 PM - Drew: Kyd Douglass was witness to the trial and noted, correctly I believe, that not a single member of the Tribunal recorded his participation in his own memoir.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:53 PM - Pat Young: I always though Lewis Powell looked like Mickey Dolans of the Monkees
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:53 PM - Drew: That the 'judges' were too ashamed to own it is very telling.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:54 PM - Pat Young: Kyd Douglas? How could he have witnessed the trial?
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:55 PM - Jamieva: those judges signed off on her death sentence then like less than a week before the hanging wanted clemency
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:56 PM - MaryDee: And it's a toss-up whether Stanton or Johnson suppressed that, as I understand.
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:56 PM - Pat Young: He was a witness at the trial
Apr 10, 2017 at 9:57 PM - Drew: He was there, Pat. Paroled and in Washington, IIRC. If memory serves, he even described the opening in which Stanton appeared and spoke. He had not read the remarks prepared for him by staff, which contained kind words for General Lee. Stanton exploded at his own speech and delayed the opening of the trial by several days.
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:00 PM - JerseyBart: The Dr. Mudd story was a pretty interesting one...always has been.
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:00 PM - Jamieva: yup
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:00 PM - Jamieva: and he didnt talk an about the garrett farm but that is land that became fort ap hill in va
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:03 PM - Pat Young: Canadian-born Irish immigrant Lieutenant Edward Dougherty led the men who found Booth on the farm
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:05 PM - JerseyBart: Jamie...probably because booth received justice and this was more about the conspiracy, trial and conviction
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:05 PM - Jamieva: true
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:05 PM - Jamieva: i thought he might have mentioned where it was in va due to him doing a talk at the moc
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:05 PM - JerseyBart: I do remember watching a late night black and with tv show about capturing booth and burning the barn.
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:05 PM - Jamieva: its one of those little trivia things i love
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:06 PM - JerseyBart: I was a teenage nightowl. Now I'm a 39 year old nightowl.
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:06 PM - Jamieva: so this was not mentioned by the presenter...so booth planned to shoot lincoln and grant did booth know before he entered the room that grant was not there
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:06 PM - MaryDee: What we learn from the trivia game--the guy who shot Booth was named Boston Corbett--a real weirdo!
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:07 PM - JerseyBart: Weirdo Justice
Apr 10, 2017 at 10:07 PM - MaryDee: Grant's cancellation was, as I recall, late in the afternoon.
 
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