Discussion in 'U of ACW Study Center' started by JerseyBart, Feb 18, 2017.
9:30pm eastern Monday 2/20/17 in the chatroom...
Great lecture, thanks for bringing it to our attention, @JerseyBart!
I really enjoyed watching it today and I do look forward to the transcript again!
Btw, @War Horse : being a great Wert fan, you should watch that video if you have the chance, join the discussion!
I learned some very interesting things, some of them are
After Joe Johnston was severely wounded, Lee took command because of seniority and because there was no one else available. I never knew that Gustavus Smith had almist suffered a nervous breakdown after just one day in command!
Something I knew passively, but never heard said aloud: the objective of the Confederates was not to defeit the Federal army, but to bring the "northern populist" (Wert's words) Lincoln to the negotiating table. They never could hope for a military victory, they needed a political victory, their independence.
Something I need to read more about: Lee was disappointed by Stonewall Jackson's performance during the Seven-days-battles.
All in all a very informative and entertaining lecture and I did enjoy it especially because I own two of Wert's books, the one about Longstreet (no surprise ) and the one about JEB Stuart.
And it was a chance to see our co-member @cash again. Cash, why don't you ever stand up and ask a question?? I always wait for that and I'm always disappointed that you did not
How fortunate you all are who live in the vicinity of Gettysburg that you have the chance to attend these lectures in person.
And @JerseyBart I hope you will have a lot of participants for the discussion!
Excellent, and an engaging speaker.
Thank you @JerseyBart.
I enjoyed that! Especially the "outhouse theory of history"! Whether or not I can participate tomorrow night depends on how well the batteries in this keyboard (I'm dog-sitting at my son's place in Seattle while he and his family are in Hawaii) hold out, unless I can figure out how to change them. If they die, I'll have to wait to read the transcript until I get home.
I haven't yet seen one of these videos from Gettysburg in which @cash wasn't up there in the front row. I'm a bit greenish with envy!
Makes me consider moving to Virginia.
Yes he was disappointed in Stonewall after the 7 days. When Lee re-organized the army into two "wings" after the seven days, Longstreet got the much larger force. Jackson only was given 14 brigades. Now, it ends up evening out quickly because almost as soon as Lee sets this up, AP Hill and Longstreet get into into and Hill gets reassigned to Jackson's wing. Jackson regained Lee's confidence through 2nd manassas and that is why sends Jackson off to get Harpers Ferry.
Yes, as I remember reading it Gen. Jackson didn't even seem to comprehend Gen. Lees orders, or worse yet didn't act on them. But they seemed to work it out later, huh ?
The blame went 2 ways, when Jackson didn't show up when and where he was supposed to be, Lee didn't really send anyone to figure out what the heck he was doing.
9:30pm eastern in the chatroom
Keyboard still holding up--we'll see!
Can't make it tonight. Too busy the last several days to watch the video.
Thanks to PeterT, Jamieva, Marydee, and Scott Bowden for joining me tonight.
Feb 20, 2017 9:24 PM - JerseyBart: Checkingin
Feb 20, 2017 9:28 PM - MaryDee: Hi, JB!
Feb 20, 2017 9:29 PM - Jamieva: I'm here on my phone for now
Feb 20, 2017 9:29 PM - JerseyBart: Hi jamie and Mary
Feb 20, 2017 9:29 PM - MaryDee: Hi, Jamie!
Feb 20, 2017 9:30 PM - Jamieva: Hi Mary and jb
Feb 20, 2017 9:31 PM - PeterT: I'm here
Feb 20, 2017 9:32 PM - PeterT: Hi to all
Feb 20, 2017 9:32 PM - Jamieva: Hi peter
Feb 20, 2017 9:32 PM - MaryDee: Hi, Peter!
Feb 20, 2017 9:32 PM - JerseyBart: Hi peter
Feb 20, 2017 9:33 PM - MaryDee: I am on a strange keyboard (threatening to run out of batteries) at my son's place, so forgive me if I make multiple typos.
Feb 20, 2017 9:33 PM - JerseyBart: Not a problem
Feb 20, 2017 9:33 PM - JerseyBart: Jeffrey Wert is a great speaker
Feb 20, 2017 9:34 PM - MaryDee: I really enjoyed this one--he's good!
Feb 20, 2017 9:34 PM - JerseyBart: Very entertaining and informative
Feb 20, 2017 9:34 PM - Jamieva: I have read several of his books but never heard him speak
Feb 20, 2017 9:35 PM - MaryDee: I;ve only read From Winchester to Cedar Creek so far
Feb 20, 2017 9:35 PM - Jamieva: I reason that one, 3rd day at Gettysburg and sword of lincoln
Feb 20, 2017 9:35 PM - JerseyBart: Interested to hear confirmed how behind the 8ball lee was from the get go. Win now/quick or lose.
Feb 20, 2017 9:36 PM - Jamieva: I'm reading lees glorious army now which was the outline for this talk
Feb 20, 2017 9:36 PM - Jamieva: Lee thought they needed a short war or they would lose
Feb 20, 2017 9:37 PM - JerseyBart: Absolutely
Feb 20, 2017 9:37 PM - PeterT: I guess Lee thought the weight of numbers might eventually get them
Feb 20, 2017 9:38 PM - MaryDee: Makes sense, although it still could have gone his way in 1864 if Lincoln had lost the election
Feb 20, 2017 9:39 PM - Jamieva: He thought the math all added up against them in a prolonged war
Feb 20, 2017 9:40 PM - MaryDee: Which it did, which is why getting the people of the Union war-weary enough to throw in the towel (or elected McClellan) was the only real chance
Feb 20, 2017 9:41 PM - JerseyBart: He sure tried to put a hurting on the Union quickly, but could not get them to break.
Feb 20, 2017 9:41 PM - Jamieva: Yup
Feb 20, 2017 9:42 PM - JerseyBart: No break, even at Chancellorsville
Feb 20, 2017 9:42 PM - Jamieva: He's losing too many men in the process
Feb 20, 2017 9:42 PM - MaryDee: Or, as Wert put it, the North needed less jackasses for leaders
Feb 20, 2017 9:43 PM - JerseyBart: That was rather honest.
Feb 20, 2017 9:43 PM - PeterT: and eventually there was Grant
Feb 20, 2017 9:43 PM - Jamieva: And he was right Lee had a significant leadership advantage at corps and division level in 62
Feb 20, 2017 9:44 PM - Jamieva: Look at McClelland corps commanders...not good
Feb 20, 2017 9:44 PM - Jamieva: McClellan
Feb 20, 2017 9:44 PM - JerseyBart: Very much so and used well. Losses at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg plus improved
Feb 20, 2017 9:45 PM - JerseyBart: Union generals spelled bad News
Feb 20, 2017 9:45 PM - JerseyBart: Then Lee could not stand heavy losses anymore
Feb 20, 2017 9:46 PM - Jamieva: Agree
Feb 20, 2017 9:46 PM - Jamieva: His loss in officers at chancellor skilled and Gettysburg was devastating
Feb 20, 2017 9:46 PM - Jamieva: Chancellorsville
Feb 20, 2017 9:47 PM - JerseyBart: Experience losses and heavy infantry losses is an eventual end game
Feb 20, 2017 9:47 PM - MaryDee: Of course as he pointed out at length, the big Chancellorsville loss was Jackson
Feb 20, 2017 9:48 PM - JerseyBart: And that only hooker was "defeated" not the troops
Feb 20, 2017 9:48 PM - JerseyBart: I love the thought of what crossing into
Feb 20, 2017 9:48 PM - Jamieva: True but look at division and brigade commander losses at Gettysburg it's staggering
Feb 20, 2017 9:48 PM - JerseyBart: PA meant to Union soldiers.
Feb 20, 2017 9:49 PM - Jamieva: All the way down to regimental commanders
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:49 PM - JerseyBart: The confederacy messing with PA was messing with our history.
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:50 PM - MaryDee: Yes, for once the psychological advantage of defending their own soil was on the Union side
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:52 PM - JerseyBart: And not just home soil, but the birthplace of the country...loved it.
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:52 PM - Jamieva: I don't buy Charles Marshall's account of Lee having pneumonia in 63 that was deadly back then
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:53 PM - JerseyBart: True, but so was chamberlain's wound.
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:53 PM - PeterT: It was angina wasn't it?
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:53 PM - Jamieva: It was some type of heart issue
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:53 PM - MaryDee: People did recover from pneumonia, though.
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:53 PM - Jamieva: I think
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:54 PM - MaryDee: Charles Marshall was hardly a medical diagnostician
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:54 PM - Jamieva: Agreed
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:55 PM - Jamieva: His Ewell theory for July 1 is interesting I never thought of it that way
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:55 PM - Jamieva: Not saying I totally agree but interesting theory
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:56 PM - MaryDee: That Ewell basically forced the battle because Heth had already withdrawn?
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:56 PM - MaryDee: I agree with Jamie on that one.
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:56 PM - JerseyBart: I understand ewell's success being a serious reason to stay, but the decision to stay stays with Lee.
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:56 PM - Jamieva: That Ewells attack commited Lee to stay
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:57 PM - Jamieva: And the decision for Ewell to attack was lees as well right?
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:57 PM - MaryDee: Seems to me it's the results of the Day 1 battle that committed Lee to stay
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:58 PM - Jamieva: Right the success of day 1 made Lee stay
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:58 PM - JerseyBart: I believe so. At least part of his overall plan. Buck stopping with Lee.
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:58 PM - Jamieva: I also like that he shot down that Lee had agreed to fight on the defensive
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:58 PM - JerseyBart: Yes
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:59 PM - MaryDee: Taking victorious troops and sending them elsewhere would have been difficult. Bu†, as you say , it was Lee's decision to attack in the afternoon
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:59 PM - Jamieva: That was the preference but only if they could move where they wanted
Feb 20, 2017 at 9:59 PM - MaryDee: Returning to Lee
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:00 PM - PeterT: And they couldn't move much ... the high ground was lost
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:00 PM - PeterT: Yes. Lee.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:01 PM - MaryDee: Back to Lee's health, I almost rolled on the floor at the "outhouse theory of history"!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:02 PM - JerseyBart: That was funny.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:02 PM - MaryDee: Of course that was the season for fresh cherries, and I've encountered problems with too many of them myself
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM - JerseyBart: Or just way too many sunflower seeds.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM - JerseyBart: <---------
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM - MaryDee: Too early in the season fothose!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM - MaryDee: for those
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:04 PM - Jamieva: Lee had that issue more than once in the war
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:04 PM - MaryDee: So did almost everyone.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:05 PM - MaryDee: Dysentery was the #1 cause of death, if I recall correctly
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:05 PM - JerseyBart: Those conditions weren't good for anybody.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:06 PM - Jamieva: Yup
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:07 PM - MaryDee: I recently reread Killer Angels, and I had forgotten how Sharra had Lee completely preoccupied with his heart symptoms. I don't want to believe that one.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:07 PM - Jamieva: My gg grandfather quickly ended up in chimborazo with an intestinal issue
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:07 PM - Jamieva: Soon after he was drafted
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:08 PM - MaryDee: Not unusual; I presume he survived since y you're here!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:10 PM - MaryDee: Especially recruits from rural areas were highly susceptible to infections of all sorts
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:11 PM - MaryDee: I was glad to see that Wert is not one of the Meade smashers, especially his description of how strong the Confederate line was
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:11 PM - JerseyBart: Or just living amongst bugs, parasites and water you aren't accustomed to.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:12 PM - MaryDee: at the Potomac
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:12 PM - JerseyBart: Yes Mary. Unlike guelzo, he's not harsh on Meade.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:12 PM - Jamieva: Yes he survived the war
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:13 PM - MaryDee: One other thing that was new to me, was that on Day 3 the Union troops were shouting "Fredericksburg" while Picket's Charge was oncoming, not just afterwards.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:13 PM - MaryDee: Sorry about the mistyping!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:13 PM - PeterT: I wasn't aware of that Mary, During and afterwards.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:13 PM - JerseyBart: Mary, they seemed to know what was gaining to happen before it did.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:14 PM - MaryDee: I presume he had a source for that.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:14 PM - MaryDee: It was the same situation the Union troops were in at Fredericksburg.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:14 PM - MaryDee: Revenge time!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:14 PM - PeterT: Reversal of fortunes
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:15 PM - JerseyBart: Very much so. They waited 8 months for it.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:16 PM - Scott Bowden: Apologies for being late. Just in from the office.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:17 PM - JerseyBart: But Lee possibly being 1.5 miles from the war's end was too tempting
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:17 PM - MaryDee: Sounds like a long day for you!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:17 PM - JerseyBart: No problem scott
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:17 PM - Scott Bowden: Indeed.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:22 PM - PeterT: Yes JB but Lee was missing two of his main guys ... Jackson and (for a while) Stuart
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:24 PM - JerseyBart: Agreed, but that seemed like Wert's point about Lee on day 3.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:26 PM - JerseyBart: Let's say we call it a night.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:26 PM - MaryDee: Neither Jackson nor Stuart (who was there on day 3) could have overcome Hunt's artillery, as Wert pointed out.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:26 PM - JerseyBart: Thanks for joining me tonight for another great discussion.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:27 PM - MaryDee: Good idea--it has been fun--thank you, JB and everyone!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:27 PM - PeterT: Yes Mary. Thanks JB and to everyone.
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:28 PM - MaryDee: At least the batteries in the keyboard I'm using are still holding out!
Feb 20, 2017 at 10:28 PM - MaryDee: Good night!
Thanks all for allowing me to eavesdrop once more!
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