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Video Discussion 47: The Battle of the Crater

Discussion in 'U of ACW Study Center' started by JerseyBart, Feb 11, 2017.

  1. JerseyBart

    JerseyBart Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Monday 2/13/17, 9:30pm eastern, in the chatroom.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2017

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  3. bdtex

    bdtex Brigadier General Moderator

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  4. MaryDee

    MaryDee Sergeant Major Trivia Game Winner

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    I remember that one--I had to miss chat because of illness, but eventually did watch the video. Is there another one we could substitute? Lots of videos are listed on @cash's website if you need one in a hurry. Or one of Eric Wittenberg's on youtube.
     
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  5. MaryDee

    MaryDee Sergeant Major Trivia Game Winner

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    If we are going to repeat the Crater video (and it's probably too late to change), I'll skip the chat tomorrow, since I did watch it and read the transcript last fall. I will also be out of town the next two Mondays, so may not be able to participate.

    For those who weren't able to participate last fall, this is a good one!
     
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  6. bdtex

    bdtex Brigadier General Moderator

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    No bueno. Babysitting granddaughters tonight. :D
     
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  7. kappclark

    kappclark Private

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    An ancestor of my wife's was there, with the 48th Pennsylvania ... "that regiment of coal miners" .. Just re-watched Cold Mountain ...is there anything historically inaccurate about the opening scene ??
     
  8. kbaxley45

    kbaxley45 Cadet

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    I believe the mine was detonated around 4:45 a.m., so, the scene being filmed in broad daylight was incorrect.
     
  9. JerseyBart

    JerseyBart Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Two minutes
     
  10. ami

    ami Major General Super Moderator

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    Feb 13, 2017 9:33 AM - Student of Sherman: I've heard mixed reviews. Some say it's ok, others say some take it way too seriously and can be over the top/dramatic with a lot of issues. But again, that's just hearsay.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:26 PM - JerseyBart: Hi
    Feb 13, 2017 9:31 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hello JB
    Feb 13, 2017 9:32 PM - JerseyBart: Hi Tennessee.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:33 PM - PeterT: Hi JB and TM
    Feb 13, 2017 9:33 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hello Peter
    Feb 13, 2017 9:34 PM - JerseyBart: Hi Peter
    Feb 13, 2017 9:35 PM - JerseyBart: So, do you want to get started?
    Feb 13, 2017 9:36 PM - PeterT: Yep
    Feb 13, 2017 9:37 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Sure
    Feb 13, 2017 9:38 PM - JerseyBart: Pretty intense discussion about what confederate soldiers thought of USCT. not shocking though
    Feb 13, 2017 9:39 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Yeah, he sounds like he's about to throw the podium across the room
    Feb 13, 2017 9:39 PM - PeterT: Yes indeed
    Feb 13, 2017 9:40 PM - JerseyBart: One big slave revolt, parading POWs through town...those that weren't killed
    Feb 13, 2017 9:41 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: They made a big mistake during that battle, USCT troops were trained for weeks on end to go around the crater
    Feb 13, 2017 9:41 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Instead, they sent in white regiments in the crater that didn't know what they were doing
    Feb 13, 2017 9:42 PM - JerseyBart: Every time I read that I think how stupid that last minute change was
    Feb 13, 2017 9:43 PM - PeterT: And they couldn't get up the slope. Easy pickings.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:45 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Yeah. Meade was afraid the USCTs wood sustain too many casualties. Pathetic mistake. If the USCTs lead the charge as planned, the battle might've ended differently
    Feb 13, 2017 9:45 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Instead it was fish in a barrel
    Feb 13, 2017 9:46 PM - Pat Young: Hi folks
    Feb 13, 2017 9:46 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Hello Pat
    Feb 13, 2017 9:46 PM - Pat Young: Hi
    Feb 13, 2017 9:47 PM - Pat Young: I would disagree about the USCT training for weeks for the assualt.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:47 PM - JerseyBart: Hi Pat
    Feb 13, 2017 9:47 PM - Pat Young: I think that was a myth
    Feb 13, 2017 9:47 PM - PeterT: Hi Pat
    Feb 13, 2017 9:48 PM - Pat Young: While the white troops got no training and less leadership, only a few of the black regiments drilled in prep for the assault.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:49 PM - Pat Young: What do you think of Levin's contention that the Confederates saw this less as a battle between soldiers and more as a suppression of a slave revolt?
    Feb 13, 2017 9:51 PM - JerseyBart: Unfortunately it makes complete sense. They didn't consider slaves humans, so not legitimate soldiers. They were in "official"revolt.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:51 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: According the accounts, I wouldn't be surprised. "Slave revolts" to many southerners meant nothing but an animal uprising. One Confederate soldier referred to USCTs as like "hawks."
    Feb 13, 2017 9:52 PM - JerseyBart: And they did to escaped revolutionary slaves what we'd expect them to,do.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:52 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Exactly like JB said
    Feb 13, 2017 9:52 PM - JerseyBart: Yet didn't see themselves as illegal revolutionaries
    Feb 13, 2017 9:53 PM - Pat Young: Right, that is ironic.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:53 PM - Pat Young: Didn't the Confederates realize that they were showing Northerners how to treat insurrectionaries?
    Feb 13, 2017 9:53 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: They say "to tyrants we will not yield" yet who are they to say that when they were tyrants themselves denying freedom to an entire race?
    Feb 13, 2017 9:54 PM - Pat Young: very on point
    Feb 13, 2017 9:54 PM - JerseyBart: Pat...that act seemingly made it okay to slaughter insurrectionists.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:54 PM - JerseyBart: Agreed Tennessee.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:56 PM - Pat Young: One thing Levin points out is how shocked the Confederates were to be fighting thousands of black soldiers
    Feb 13, 2017 9:56 PM - JerseyBart: Their opinion of the world just came crashing down.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:56 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Yeah. It also seemed to remind them to one of the reasons they were fighting, to maintain social status superior to blacks
    Feb 13, 2017 9:56 PM - Pat Young: What was it like to see all those former slaves uniformed and fully armed.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:56 PM - PeterT: That must have been a wake up call
    Feb 13, 2017 9:57 PM - Pat Young: If blacks could be soldiers, they could be rulers.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:58 PM - JerseyBart: They became a bigger threat. They had chosen a side and been somewhat accepted by the union.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:58 PM - JerseyBart: They were official, legit and the whole world saw the confederates were wrong.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:58 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: In a way I find it quite metaphorical, that they were facing the men they created. The scars from whips, the endurance from beatings, all served to give the southerners their own medicine.
    Feb 13, 2017 9:59 PM - JerseyBart: Very well said Tennessee!!!
     
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  11. ami

    ami Major General Super Moderator

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    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:00 PM - PeterT: A southern politician said "If the negroes make good soldiers then our whole notion of slavery is wrong". They did and it was.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:01 PM - JerseyBart: Sure was and they did not react well to being proven so incredibly wrong.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:02 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: You see this same pattern when you study some of the bizarre cases against black men in the south during the mid 20th century
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:03 PM - JerseyBart: Natives Americans and Europeans as well.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:03 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: It directly reflects the behaviour of their ancestors, and to me, that is clear enough evidence
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:04 PM - JerseyBart: Like I say in class A LOT...rich white landowning men are gonna do what rich white landowning men do.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:05 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Yep. It all boils down to greed. Whites just so happened to get to places first
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:05 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Have you ever seen "Gun, Germs, and Steel?"
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:06 PM - JerseyBart: No
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:07 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Well it's a pretty good documentary that explains that stuff
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:09 PM - JerseyBart: Thanks. I'll check it out. Netflix?
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:09 PM - Pat Young: Levin's book on The Crater is good https://www.amazon.com/Remembering-...F8&qid=1487041714&sr=8-2&keywords=kevin+levin
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:09 PM - Pat Young: He spends quite a bit of it on how the battle was recalled
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM - Pat Young: Particularly how blacks were eventally written out of the story
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:10 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: It might be JB. I saw it on Youtube though
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:11 PM - JerseyBart: Thanks Tennessee.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:11 PM - PeterT: To what extent Pat? That their participation was not mentioned? When were they written back in to the story?
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:11 PM - JerseyBart: Is Kevin on cwt?
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:13 PM - Pat Young: Kevin is not. He has his own blog called Civil War Memory
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:13 PM - Pat Young: He is writting a new book on "Black Confederates"
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:13 PM - JerseyBart: Thanks Pat.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:14 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: That sounds interesting. When will that come out?
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:14 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: I sent you a link you can view later if you would like, JB.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:15 PM - Pat Young: I'm not sure. I am a fb friend of his and he is working on finishing the book now for UNC Press.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:15 PM - JerseyBart: Just saw it. Thanks Tennessee. One of the man reasons I love this place...learning community.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:15 PM - Pat Young: "Finishing" can take a year though for a scholarly book.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:15 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: There are so many misconceptions about Black Confederates. I'm confident Levin will clear some of those issues.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:15 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: No problem JB!
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:16 PM - Pat Young: I know right now he is working on how black camp servants have lately been misidenitfied as "Confederate soldiers."
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:16 PM - JerseyBart: In a very honest, impassioned way.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:16 PM - Pat Young: Blacks were pretty much not invited to the Petersburg reunions and the reenactments had no blacks.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:17 PM - Pat Young: When I visited Petersburg in my 20s I found out about the large role blacks played in the seige
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:17 PM - Pat Young: Firth time I heard of it.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:17 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Even in my reenacting community, they believe Black Confederates that actually fought for the CSA. The only time black took up arms in the Confederacy were the LNG, but they were militia and only on guard duty if I remember correctly. 10 percne tof them became USCTs when NO was captured
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:18 PM - Pat Young: I did not realize that a whole Corps of blacks was organized by Ben Butler.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:18 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Sorry, I killed that with typos
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:18 PM - Pat Young: we got it
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:18 PM - JerseyBart: Haha
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:19 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: :frantic: :help:
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:19 PM - Pat Young: What did you think of Kevin's overall presentation?
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:19 PM - JerseyBart: That book is a must read for those who want or claim to want honest history.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:19 PM - Pat Young: truth
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:20 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: I'm no expert critique on presentations, but I he gets to his points in a manner that allows you to sort of go in a chain of thoughts
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:20 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: It was really good
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:20 PM - JerseyBart: I loved it. Great questions too. The more I learn, the more I love the behind the scenes information more than battle strategy etc c.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:21 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Some people change to different points so quickly that they boggle your mind
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:21 PM - Pat Young: Funny thing he told me
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:21 PM - Pat Young: He wanted to do a bio of Mahone
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:21 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: It's good to not get an armchair's perspective all the time!
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:21 PM - JerseyBart: College Bart would have been angry to not see maps, videos and hear "this happened and then this happened next and this happened next. The end."
     
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  12. ami

    ami Major General Super Moderator

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    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM - Pat Young: But in reading his collected manuscripts he found the writing tiny and impossible to decipher
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM - Pat Young: anyway, got to get to bed.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM - Pat Young: Good night all!
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Goodnight Pat
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:22 PM - JerseyBart: That's an interesting story too: apart of the slaughter at the crater works with African Americans postwar.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:23 PM - JerseyBart: Good night pat. Thank you as always.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:23 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Well shoot, I have to get up at 5:45 am tomorrow. Goodnight JB and Pat
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:23 PM - PeterT: Goodnight Pat
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:23 PM - JerseyBart: I say we call it a nig. Thank you Pat, Tennessee and Peter. Great discussion.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:24 PM - JerseyBart: Night..what a poor spot for a typo. Sorry.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:24 PM - PeterT: Thanks everyone. Once again I learned a lot!
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:24 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: LMAO
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:24 PM - JerseyBart: And sometimes, I'm a moron.
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:25 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: "I say we call it a nig" - George Wallace's reaction to Levin's Scared Trust Talk 2014
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:25 PM - PeterT: :D
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:25 PM - Tennessee_Mountainman: Alright night everyone enjoyed the discussion, thanks for having me!
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:26 PM - JerseyBart: Looking at myself like... :nah disagree:
    Feb 13, 2017 at 10:26 PM - JerseyBart: Good night all.
     
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  13. JerseyBart

    JerseyBart Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Best discussion we've had in a while.
     
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  14. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    Good video. Thanks for leading the discussion.
     
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  15. kappclark

    kappclark Private

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    Thanks - Also - I read that the fuse broke during the first try -- meaning a second trip into the mine to repair .. I think that would have added even more drama, but ... Hollywood license....
    excellent lecture.
     
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