Video Discussion 37: Two Councils of War

This was an interesting one; rather familiar because I've read several books on Gettysburg (hoping to go to the "Invasion" last weekend) and am particularly interested in @Eric Wittenberg's forthcoming book on Meade at Gettysburg and how his enemies (Butterfield, Sickles) re-interpreted the July 2 council to discredit Meade before the Joint Committee on the War. Eric's blog entries are here: http://civilwarcavalry.com/?paged=2

Any chance that Eric would be available to comment?
 
On the councils of war, especially the second. Admittedly, if the speaker had gotten into the personalities and how it was used to discredit Meade, the talk would have gone another hour!
 
Thanks for the clarification.

I don't have time to watch Frank's presentation, so I'm not in a position to comment on it. But it seems clear to me that as a new army commander, Meade was looking to build consensus among his subordinates and that he wanted them to be on board with whatever he decided to do.
 
Probably won't make this one for personal reasons. Never know though.
 
Let me know the consensus of my regulars: as scheduled or postpone to next week? I'm okay with either.
 
Sep 26, 2016 9:27 PM - MaryDee: I'm here, 3 minutes early.
Sep 26, 2016 9:29 PM - JerseyBart: Hi
Sep 26, 2016 9:30 PM - MaryDee: Why am I not showing up under "Members in Chat"?
Sep 26, 2016 9:30 PM - JerseyBart: I wasn't either. I think you're a ghost.
Sep 26, 2016 9:30 PM - MaryDee: You're there now!
Sep 26, 2016 9:31 PM - MaryDee: PeterT is going to be late and Northern Light said she may drop in. I don't know if anyone else is coming.
Sep 26, 2016 9:32 PM - JerseyBart: We might just be postponing this.
Sep 26, 2016 9:32 PM - MaryDee: What with Monday Night Football and events that cannot be named, it's going to be busy the next few weeks.
Sep 26, 2016 9:33 PM - JerseyBart: Mnf not really the issue, but the debate is
Sep 26, 2016 9:33 PM - JerseyBart: Likely
Sep 26, 2016 9:33 PM - MaryDee: I don't know if any of the other events that cannot be named are on Monday.
Sep 26, 2016 9:34 PM - JerseyBart: Wrestling
Sep 26, 2016 9:34 PM - JerseyBart: Lol
Sep 26, 2016 9:35 PM - MaryDee: I was going to look up to see if the Chancellorsville council was before or after Hooker got bonked on the head. The little I've read indicates that he had already kind of panicked and wanted to get out of there. But I haven't read a lot on that battle.
Sep 26, 2016 9:36 PM - MaryDee: And I ran out of time.
Sep 26, 2016 9:37 PM - JerseyBart: I haven't read much on Chancellorsville either. Really good video though.
Sep 26, 2016 9:39 PM - MaryDee: I found it interesting although I have read stuff on Butterfield taking over the Gettysburg council. But I'll wait to see if Peter comes or if you decide to postpone.
Sep 26, 2016 9:39 PM - PeterT: Here now
Sep 26, 2016 9:40 PM - MaryDee: Hi, Peter! Have you recovered from your journey?
Sep 26, 2016 9:40 PM - PeterT: Hi all
Sep 26, 2016 9:40 PM - MaryDee: It looks as though we three are it.
Sep 26, 2016 9:40 PM - PeterT: Just Mary. Waking up at 3:00am ready to go!
Sep 26, 2016 9:42 PM - MaryDee: I'll ask you--do you know if the Chancellorsville council was before or after Hooker got bonked on the head? With so little known about brain injury at the time, there was no mechanism to get him to treatment and have someone else take over.
Sep 26, 2016 9:42 PM - PeterT: Meade I can understand wanting to have a meeting. He was new to command and had not seen the ground. He needed input.
Sep 26, 2016 9:44 PM - PeterT: I am not sure Mary.
Sep 26, 2016 9:44 PM - MaryDee: OK, I'll bring up my beef with the documentary there. Everything I've read (especially Coddington and, as I recall, Wittenberg) states that Butterfield sort of took over the meeting and that the questions were his idea. Coddington states and Trudeau implies that this was a surprise to Meade.
Sep 26, 2016 9:45 PM - MaryDee: It was just supposed to be an executive-type discussion, not a formal council of war.
Sep 26, 2016 9:46 PM - MaryDee: Of course Butterfield's motive was to get some dirt on Meade.
Sep 26, 2016 9:46 PM - PeterT: He is another Dirty Dan
Sep 26, 2016 9:46 PM - MaryDee: Hand in hand with Dirty Dan!
Sep 26, 2016 9:47 PM - JerseyBart: Butterfield being at Gettsyburg meeting was trouble waiting to happen.
Sep 26, 2016 9:47 PM - MaryDee: He pulled this again during the retreat.
Sep 26, 2016 9:47 PM - PeterT: Hooker got bonked before the meeting I think
Sep 26, 2016 9:49 PM - MaryDee: I'll look it up afterwards, but I think so too.
Sep 26, 2016 9:49 PM - JerseyBart: He was just looking for an out as someone to blame. He tried to find both in Meade.
Sep 26, 2016 9:51 PM - PeterT: Just grabbed Ed Bearss "Fields of Honor" ... definitely before. Ed says if Hooker had been dead or unconscious that might have solved a few problems!
Sep 26, 2016 9:52 PM - MaryDee: As I said, if brain injuries had been better understood, Hooker would have been relieved until he recovered. But back then, if you were conscious, you were OK.
Sep 26, 2016 9:52 PM - JerseyBart: Also shows the god awful politics in the union army high command
Sep 26, 2016 9:53 PM - MaryDee: Yes, horrible! Of course there was plenty of that on the other side; I've been reading about Bragg and that gang.
Sep 26, 2016 9:55 PM - MaryDee: I'm still not showing as in Chat; I know I'm getting old and decrepit, but I didn't think I was a ghost yet!
Sep 26, 2016 9:56 PM - JerseyBart: You still aren't listed...dunno why.
Sep 26, 2016 9:56 PM - MaryDee: Oh, well, I'm here and you two know I'm here!
Sep 26, 2016 9:57 PM - JerseyBart: Yup
Sep 26, 2016 9:57 PM - PeterT: Doesn't show you being online either. You might need to tick the box "show on line status". But maybe it is ticked.
Sep 26, 2016 9:58 PM - MaryDee: That might be; I'll check afterwards. But I can see that I'm online, just not here. :bounce:
Sep 26, 2016 9:59 PM - PeterT: Gremlins
Sep 26, 2016 10:00 PM - MaryDee: I thought the lecture was really good about the politics. It's just that the lecturer seemed to think that Butterfield's formal questions were at Meade's instructions.
 
ep 26, 2016 at 10:01 PM - JerseyBart: Seems like Butterfield made those questions up with an agenda. I've read the trial,of Meade. He was out to get him.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:02 PM - MaryDee: Definitely! He was trying to show that Meade wanted to retreat.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:02 PM - JerseyBart: An then butterfield was just out to cover his butt
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:03 PM - MaryDee: I don't know if he already planned to testify before the Committee on Conduct of the War at the time of the meeting, but he certainly interpreted the meeting in such a way as to discredit Meade.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:04 PM - MaryDee: Hi, War Horse!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:05 PM - MaryDee: At least WH is showing that he's here in Chat. He may be trying to watch us and the event that must not be named at the same time?
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:06 PM - War Horse: If you think about it all of the testimonies against Mead were from people the held grudges against him. Talk about a setup from the beginning. Hi Marydee :smile: Sorry Bart, I didn't have time to watch the video. I'll just read from here.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:06 PM - PeterT: Meade certainly gets a raw deal. The Butterfield/Sickles bunch amongst others
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:07 PM - PeterT: Hi Mike!!!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:07 PM - War Horse: That is to funny MaryDee. Cash made me LOL for real when he posted that. Hi PeterT
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:07 PM - JerseyBart: Meade wasn't totally innocent. His personality made some enemies
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:08 PM - MaryDee: Yes, the "goggle-eyed snapping turtle"
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:08 PM - PeterT: You gotta be cruel to be kind ... as the song goes.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:08 PM - War Horse: Yes it did but loyalties to Hooker amoung the existing Generals also played a part in the difficulties he faced.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:09 PM - JerseyBart: Backfired a bit though
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:09 PM - MaryDee: Very much so. Plus all the fussing about rank, even if it was just a matter of hours between who got promoted when.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:12 PM - PeterT: Meade knew who he could trust the most though - Reynolds and Hancock
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:13 PM - MaryDee: Yes--which makes it more tragic that Reynolds was killed right at the beginning.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:15 PM - MaryDee: Especially since Reynolds was senior and could have influenced the others more.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:17 PM - War Horse: I personally loved when he promoted Hancock over O.O Howard. Howard didn't take it to well as I recall. Reynolds was a tragic loss.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:17 PM - JerseyBart: Dumping Doubleday, even if he thought it was deserved, made life difficult for him.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:17 PM - MaryDee: Doubleday was another who tried to discredit Meade.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:18 PM - MaryDee: and Howard.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM - War Horse: He was there to testify. Doubleday I mean.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM - MaryDee: That's what I thought. I've read some excerpts from his writings, and he sure hated both Meade and Howard, especially Meade.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM - PeterT: Oh yeah Doubleday .... the guy who invented baseball :smile:
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:20 PM - MaryDee: Another of the zillion Gettysburg myths!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:21 PM - War Horse: The table was totally set up against Meade to begin with. I like to say things have changed, but they haven't. It's all about building your supporters and hiding the truth. Absolutely correct MaryDee.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:23 PM - MaryDee: We haven't mentioned Pleasanton, who wasn't at the Gettysburg meeting.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:26 PM - MaryDee: Interesting--this is one chat where we've used the full time, or close to it!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:26 PM - War Horse: No we haven't. I personally like the Meade supporters. Hancock was one in my opinion.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:27 PM - PeterT: Pleasanton ... mmmm. a whole discussion right there!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:28 PM - MaryDee: And quite a few of the next rank down, like Gibbon (who was III Corps commander because Hancock was wing commanderr
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:29 PM - MaryDee: Sorry, II Corps--I hit two many I's!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:30 PM - MaryDee: I'm referring to Meade supporters.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:31 PM - PeterT: Bart has dropped off? Gone to watch that thing we cant talk about ... or football!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:31 PM - MaryDee: It is 7:30 and I gotta do some chores. I notice that JB has already left. Goodnight, all!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:31 PM - PeterT: Just you and me War Horse!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:32 PM - War Horse: I'm trying to think of all the Meade supporters. There were several and I'm drawing a blank. Any help?
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:32 PM - PeterT: While I think of it ... when do you go off summer time? We go on this weekend I think.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:33 PM - War Horse: Good night all. Sorry I wasn't prepared.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:34 PM - JerseyBart: Sorry guys. Got sidetracked. Thank you for joining me tonight.
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:35 PM - MaryDee: I'm back for a minute--we go off daylight time the first Sunday of November (Nov 6 at 2 am)
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:35 PM - MaryDee: Thanks, JB, goodnight!
Sep 26, 2016 at 10:36 PM - PeterT: Thanks everyone. OK Mary thanks. I will have to be aware of that so I don't miss these chats.
 
Back
Top