Video Discussion 29: Grant and Lee

Depends on how far I get on my taxes. With taxes, my out-of-control yard and preparing for a trip, it's gonna be a very busy week! I'll try! I've watched a number of these "Sacred Trust" talks and all of them have been good.

Horrors of being over 65 in Oregon is that in order to get my deductions I have to calculate itemized deductions on my Oregon return even though I can't do it for the Feds. Grrr!
 
Depends on how far I get on my taxes. With taxes, my out-of-control yard and preparing for a trip, it's gonna be a very busy week! I'll try! I've watched a number of these "Sacred Trust" talks and all of them have been good.

Horrors of being over 65 in Oregon is that in order to get my deductions I have to calculate itemized deductions on my Oregon return even though I can't do it for the Feds. Grrr!

I'm feeling with you. Just did my taxes three weeks ago and lo and behold! Already got my refund!

I've watched that video a while ago, but will have to watch it again in order to follow your discussion. Looking very much forward again to reading the transcript. Have fun, all of you!
 
This video was especially helpful for me, because I sometimes feel that I am waging a one person war against all of the negative Myths surrounding Grant. It becomes exhausting. Anyhow, it was interesting that I had pestered two of our distinguished members about this very topic - myths about Grant and Lee -- not less than two days ago, so this just added to what I had been told. Thank you for pointing this video out :smile: Another new "favourite" historian (I am fickle)
 
This video was especially helpful for me, because I sometimes feel that I am waging a one person war against all of the negative Myths surrounding Grant. It becomes exhausting. Anyhow, it was interesting that I had pestered two of our distinguished members about this very topic - myths about Grant and Lee -- not less than two days ago, so this just added to what I had been told. Thank you for pointing this video out :smile: Another new "favourite" historian (I am fickle)
You are not alone Bee. I just get tired of the same old rhetoric so I go somewhere else on CWT To find something of interest to me.
 
Transcript:

Apr 11, 2016 9:58 PM - PeterT: Reporting in
Apr 11, 2016 9:59 PM - JerseyBart: Hi PeterT
Apr 11, 2016 9:59 PM - PeterT: Hi JB
Apr 11, 2016 9:59 PM - Pat Answer: *salutes*
Apr 11, 2016 9:59 PM - JerseyBart: Hi Pat
Apr 11, 2016 9:59 PM - PeterT: Hi Pat
Apr 11, 2016 10:00 PM - Pat Answer: Hi guys
Apr 11, 2016 10:00 PM - bdtex: Hello. Eating dinner. Will jump in in a few mins
Apr 11, 2016 10:01 PM - JerseyBart: No problem bdtex
Apr 11, 2016 10:01 PM - Northern Light: Hi everyone!
Apr 11, 2016 10:01 PM - JerseyBart: Hi northern
Apr 11, 2016 10:02 PM - Northern Light: Great video, JB
Apr 11, 2016 10:02 PM - bdtex: Haven't done much reading on Lee or Grant yet. Dont
Apr 11, 2016 10:02 PM - JerseyBart: Thanks
Apr 11, 2016 10:02 PM - Bee: Just fiinished up! Great speaker; love to see him in person!
Apr 11, 2016 10:02 PM - bdtex: Feel qualified to challenge Davis on any of the myths
Apr 11, 2016 10:02 PM - Northern Light: Has anyone read the book?
Apr 11, 2016 10:02 PM - JerseyBart: No
Apr 11, 2016 10:03 PM - PeterT: Hi NL
Apr 11, 2016 10:03 PM - Northern Light: Hi Peter
Apr 11, 2016 10:03 PM - PeterT: And Bee and bdtex
Apr 11, 2016 10:03 PM - Pat Answer: I challenge him about cheese, though :D
Apr 11, 2016 10:03 PM - bdtex: Evening
Apr 11, 2016 10:03 PM - Bee: Good afternoon, Peter
Apr 11, 2016 10:04 PM - Northern Light: Me too! Cheese rules!
Apr 11, 2016 10:04 PM - Bee: I hate cheese. My new friend
Apr 11, 2016 10:04 PM - JerseyBart: It is good to heart a guy who knows his stuff myth bust.
Apr 11, 2016 10:04 PM - PeterT: Agree with the cheese challenge!
Apr 11, 2016 10:05 PM - Bee: A big help to me as the genesis of a lot of Grant hating
Apr 11, 2016 10:05 PM - Northern Light: Very interesting about the myths.
Apr 11, 2016 10:05 PM - JerseyBart: He made cheese sound disgusting.
Apr 11, 2016 10:05 PM - PeterT: There was some really intersting statements
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - bdtex: I don't think there is much dispute that Lee was't a reconciliator.
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - PeterT: Not the cheese thingy though
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - JerseyBart: Bee: the backstabbing of that era was unbelievable
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - Bee: I was surprised that there was not the concrete evidence about the 1855 drinking/resignation episode of Grant
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - bdtex: Not in CWY
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - Pat Answer: 2 great points: 1 Grant/Lee similar fundamental characters and 2 the overall power of myth
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - Northern Light: So weird, thatb we trash Grant and praise Lee. Should be other way around. How did that happen. Better PR?
Apr 11, 2016 10:06 PM - bdtex: CWT
Apr 11, 2016 10:07 PM - Bee: Jubal Early was devoted to trashing people like only SIckles could do
Apr 11, 2016 10:07 PM - PeterT: I was surprised that Lee did not consider himself "an American"
Apr 11, 2016 10:07 PM - JerseyBart: NL...the lost cause story won for decades
Apr 11, 2016 10:08 PM - Northern Light: I know but why? Were they just noisier?
Apr 11, 2016 10:08 PM - JerseyBart: PeterT: I'm not. He turned on the u.s. Already, of course everything after would be their fault
Apr 11, 2016 10:08 PM - Bee: Jubal Early was very effiecient: he disseminated his information on many levels
Apr 11, 2016 10:09 PM - bdtex: Loved his myth busting of Lee taking communion with the black man in church. Davis said it likely never happened. Hadn't heard that before. made sense.
Apr 11, 2016 10:09 PM - MaryDee: Sorry I'm late; was in kitchen andnot watching time!
Apr 11, 2016 10:09 PM - JerseyBart: The more I learn about Lee, the less I respect and vice versa for grant
Apr 11, 2016 10:09 PM - Northern Light: Why do people just accept that rhetoric? Did they really want the CSA to win ?
 
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:09 PM - Pat Answer: NL The country needed healing also - any way it came
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:10 PM - JerseyBart: NL...the "story" was better than the reality.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:10 PM - Northern Light: Agreed, all that Southern gentleman was a smoke screen.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:10 PM - Bee: It is always easier to believe that bad about people thanh the good. It makes folks feel good. The LOst Cause a[ppealed on so many levels
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:10 PM - bdtex: southerners did NL. :D
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:11 PM - Northern Light: I guess, but I find it unappealing and fatuous.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:11 PM - Bee: NL; Agreed, but sore losers are a different breed
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:11 PM - JerseyBart: Southern gentleman is part of the myth.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:12 PM - MaryDee: Definitely.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:12 PM - bdtex: Most do now NL. Some can't let it go.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:12 PM - Bee: Also I found interesting was how what I thought were lost battles actually had other successes: drawing the army out of Va
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:13 PM - Northern Light: Yeas, well when you read about some of their behaviour toward the Northern dead, it was not gentlymanly or nice, just nasty!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:13 PM - Pat Answer: JB 22:09 That's just it. Lee myth = saint, Grant myth = demon There really isn't anywhere else to go
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:14 PM - MaryDee: I did know that the southern papers actually hailed Gettysburg as a victory. Lee sent a lot of supplies
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:14 PM - JerseyBart: Agreed Pat. Good night all. :D
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:14 PM - Northern Light: I am not sure I buy that, Bee. Lee wanted to crush the union Army at Gettysburg and he didn't. Sure he wanted to take the war out of Virginia, but that was very short term.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:14 PM - MaryDee: back to VA; he got the Union Army out of VA.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:14 PM - Bee: Bye JB
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:14 PM - Northern Light: Bye, JB.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:15 PM - Pat Answer: Good night JB
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:15 PM - JerseyBart: And wagons full of wasted men and the remaining left without many officers
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:15 PM - MaryDee: And, as Davis said, he really scared the North.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:15 PM - JerseyBart: That was a joke. I'm not leaving.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:15 PM - Bee: NL: I was surprised by this obseration and wanted to know what otherst think
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:15 PM - Bee: JB..I am gullable!!!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:16 PM - Northern Light: But not for long enough, Mary Dee, and at what cost to his army?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:16 PM - JerseyBart: Exactly NL
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:17 PM - MaryDee: True, but the southern papers and a lot of men in the ANV didn't see it that way!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:17 PM - JerseyBart: I enjoyed the Grants' love story.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:17 PM - Northern Light: Think of the casualties and the ldiasaster of the retreat. That does not sound like much of a victory to me.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:17 PM - JerseyBart: Lee and Longstreet knew they lost.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:18 PM - Northern Light: Wish i could have quoted that in a recent thread that doesn't bear mentioning!!!!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:18 PM - MaryDee: Not to me, either,except that they did get back successfully. But it's true that Lee accomplished all but one of his goals (defeating the Union Army).
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:18 PM - Pat Answer: The 'meaning' of Gettysburg is its own encyclopedia... But it could only be a raid in the long run.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:18 PM - PeterT: Lee offered to resign. Hardly a victory!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:18 PM - bdtex: I think Davis said most of the Lee myth was postwar except the goal of Gettysburg and Lee's attitude toward Union soldiers
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:19 PM - Pat Answer: bdtex: It amazed me how most of the myths were postwar
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:19 PM - bdtex: Me too JB about Grant and Julia.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM - Northern Light: Lee was exhausted and discouraged, but I think it was merely a gesture. he knew Davis wouldn't accept his resignation, who was there to replace him?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM - Pat Answer: NL Why Bragg of course. BWAHAHAHAHA
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM - PeterT: I guess so NL
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:20 PM - JerseyBart: The real Lee doesn't sound like someone I'd want to model my life after, then or now.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:21 PM - Northern Light: Oh course. all part of the Lost Cause tripe.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:21 PM - MaryDee: Bragg, JE Johnston….
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:21 PM - bdtex: yes PA. I hadn't heard a lot of that. Don't know a whole lot about Lee yet so I don't think I perpetuated any of those myths.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:21 PM - MaryDee: Loved the one about Joe Johnston being the CSA's McClellan!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:22 PM - PeterT: Grant thought highly of Joe and Lee thought highly of George! :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:22 PM - Northern Light: No, because the whole basis of the southern chivalric ethos was based on dominance of other. a false foundation that could not hold indefinitely.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:22 PM - MaryDee: That was the part I thought was weird, PeterT
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:23 PM - Pat Answer: McClellan and Johnston played "chess"/ Grant and Lee played "poker" Harder to bluff a chessplayer
 
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:23 PM - bdtex: My interest in the ACW so far has mostly of the military aspect from 1861-1865 so I didn't find the myths to be too unnerving.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:24 PM - PeterT: Good analogy Pat
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:24 PM - Northern Light: Joe Johnston relized that he could not beat the union troups, so he used delaying tactics, mcClellan, was just incapable of commitment. Big Difference.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:24 PM - JerseyBart: I liked that they both fessed up to military mistakes and took the responsibility for decisions themselves not by votes in councils.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:24 PM - MaryDee: The results were pretty much the same, though + retreat
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:25 PM - Pat Answer: NL: The more I look at McClellan's campaigns the less I accept that meme. Not that he didn't have flaws, but...
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:25 PM - MaryDee: JB,very true! Also both realized that the civilian government was the boss!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:26 PM - bdtex: Enjoyed Davis' story about Grant as an entrepreneur. That was an eye opener. That was a myth that I had swallowed.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:26 PM - Bee: I have heard about threee lectures that emphasize how important relations with the civilaian boss was
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:26 PM - Pat Answer: JB and MD: Agreed. They understood the whole war better than anyone else.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:26 PM - JerseyBart: Marydee...they knew their role in the army and the army's role in govt. works for me.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:27 PM - Northern Light: I am sure that Lee knew the game was up when Petersburg fell. He wasted a lot of lives by hanging on until Appomattox
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:28 PM - MaryDee: If you want to play "what if" though, if Lee had succeeded in linking up with Joe Johnston...
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:28 PM - Northern Light: True, JB, something Little mac never understood.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:29 PM - Northern Light: Wasn't going to happen, Mary. IMHO
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:29 PM - JerseyBart: :grant: :lee:
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:29 PM - Pat Answer: Lee's army still pretty wrecked. Sherman has enough to hold until Grant arrives
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:29 PM - bdtex: Like JB.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:29 PM - Bee: Okay, phone ringing off the hook for work. i must go. Ciao!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:29 PM - Northern Light: Yupper! PA
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - JerseyBart: By bee!!!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - Northern Light: Bye, Bee!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - Pat Answer: Good night Bee!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - JerseyBart: Or bye bee!!!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - PeterT: bye to bee
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - MaryDee: Goodnight, Bee!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - bdtex: Ltr Bee
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM - Bee: bye bye: I can still follow
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:31 PM - JerseyBart: So the next question is, how do,you get people to see past the myths to the reality?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:31 PM - MaryDee: Bee, just don't be reading what we say about Grant and Lee to phone calls at work :bounce:
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:31 PM - JerseyBart: No amount of sources seems to be enough.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:31 PM - Northern Light: I thought that was interesting about Twain and the post-it notes!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:32 PM - Bee: MD I have screwed up once already regarding divided attentions...results were funny
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:32 PM - MaryDee: That's a good question, JB. We see a lot of Lost Cause and myth stuff on this forum!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:32 PM - Pat Answer: That's the "power of myth" (Joe Campbell would be proud) It isn't about the quantity or quality of evidence. It's the narrative...
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:33 PM - JerseyBart: My dad had a crayons shop full of crayons he took from the schools he was the head of maintenance of...dang thief.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:33 PM - bdtex: Tough to do JB. Most people except buffs won't put any time into it.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:33 PM - MaryDee: There's a fair amount of it in Shelby Foote, too.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:33 PM - Northern Light: JB, people will believe what they want to believe. if they want Grant to be a drunken butcher then they will believe it. it they want Lee to be a saint, so be it!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:33 PM - JerseyBart: Sure do Mary.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:33 PM - Pat Answer: exactly
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:34 PM - Northern Light: This forum has ruined Shelby for me. Sigh... I still like his voice though!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:34 PM - JerseyBart: Agreed NL and Pat. Leading horses to water and drinking it are very sepera
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:34 PM - JerseyBart: Separate.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:34 PM - MaryDee: Right, NL. Look how many cherry pies are sold for what used to be Washington's Birthday!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:34 PM - Northern Light: Heh!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:34 PM - Pat Answer: It's absolutely not just the ACW
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:35 PM - JerseyBart: Lol Mary and how many people use to come here as if it were ChamberlainTV
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:36 PM - Northern Light: No, and that is what bothers me about some of the things I read here.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:36 PM - bdtex: Tapped out guys. Didn't have time to take notes and my memory is drained.
 
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:36 PM - JerseyBart: By bd.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:36 PM - JerseyBart: Dang it again...Bye bd
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:36 PM - MaryDee: I've gotten to the point that if a thread goes more than 100 posts, I igoreit.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37 PM - bdtex: Good video though. Loved it. Read some of his books.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37 PM - MaryDee: Good night, bd! Oops, that should be "ignore it"
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37 PM - JerseyBart: NL...too much willful ignorance in too many places.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37 PM - Northern Light: What's wrong with Chamberlain? It's not his fault that Sharra immortalized him! :bounce:
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:37 PM - JerseyBart: Haha
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:38 PM - bdtex: Ima stay but just read for a bit.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:38 PM - Northern Light: I'm with you Mary, too many thread just disintegrate into nonsense.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:38 PM - Pat Answer: Speaking of myths LOL (I hear the 140th NY and 1 MN were also at the battle somewhere...)
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:38 PM - Northern Light: No, really?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:39 PM - JerseyBart: Pat...cheering section for 20th Maine.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:39 PM - MaryDee: I don't want to name names, but there are a few who are way, way out.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:39 PM - Northern Light: I guess that is what the ignore button is for!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:39 PM - JerseyBart: Yeah, we'll leave names out. All good people, just different.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:40 PM - Northern Light: What did you think about his comments on different expectations of the surrender documents.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:40 PM - Pat Answer: Going back, what about how alike Grant and Lee were in character, especially as military leaders?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:40 PM - MaryDee: Some are on one side, some on the other, but the extreme ones don't seem to talk to each other.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:41 PM - Pat Answer: NL's question first...
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:41 PM - MaryDee: I thought that was interesting, but again, if you've read the letter exchange, it was obvious that Lee wanted to negotiate. Grant had been told, no political bargaining.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:42 PM - bdtex: I musta missed those NL.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:42 PM - MaryDee: Told by Lincoln.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:43 PM - Northern Light: I thought it was interesting that Lee had Davis complete confidence but Grant was always aware of the politics in Washington.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:43 PM - Northern Light: Does that give Lee an advantage?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:43 PM - MaryDee: Grant and Lincoln were pretty close by the end of the war.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:44 PM - MaryDee: With people like Halleck out of the way, Grant dealt directly with Lincoln.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:44 PM - JerseyBart: NL...lots of backstabbers up north.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:44 PM - MaryDee: Backstabbers here, there, everywhere
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:45 PM - Northern Light: How mucg was the war affected by the political wrangling on both sides?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:45 PM - bdtex: Nobody else wanted Jeff Davis' job.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:45 PM - MaryDee: There wasn't a big opposition press in the south. In the north, there were the Democrats to contend with.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:45 PM - Northern Light: much
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:45 PM - Pat Answer: Plenty of backstabbing on both sides, but Northern politics a "hot mess"
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:46 PM - MaryDee: Of course there was the problem of Bragg's being supported by Davis.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:46 PM - Northern Light: True, PA. Sometime you have to wonder whose side who was on. oh wait, each on his own side!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:47 PM - Pat Answer: Southern press was pretty vocal too though - and there were governors of NC and GA
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:47 PM - bdtex: Ok. Night all. My eyes are glazing over.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:47 PM - Northern Light: Davis was often the Confederacy's worst enemy. Too personally involved, perhaps.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:47 PM - Northern Light: "night, Tex!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:48 PM - JerseyBart: Mind too bd. I'm calling it. PPlease keep discussing if you'd like. Thank you again for joining me.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:48 PM - MaryDee: Good night, bdtex!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:48 PM - Northern Light: The press, oh the press!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:48 PM - Northern Light: Night, JB.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:49 PM - Pat Answer: NL 22:45 It was probably a wash when you added it all up for both sides!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:49 PM - MaryDee: I'm kinda glazing over, too. T*x returns are fatiguing! I'm going to hit the bed and get up early.
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:49 PM - Pat Answer: Good night bdtex and JB
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:49 PM - Northern Light: Goodnight, Mary!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:50 PM - Pat Answer: and MaryDee
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:50 PM - MaryDee: I'll be missing the next two Mondays as I'll be out of town without computer. Great chatting with all of you!
 
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:50 PM - Northern Light: Is anyone left?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:51 PM - Pat Answer: For about ten more minutes
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:51 PM - Northern Light: Am I talking to myself?
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:51 PM - Northern Light: Oh Pat, I'm not alone!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:53 PM - Northern Light: Well, I'm fading too, so I guess I will say good night, too!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:53 PM - Pat Answer: Davis' story about the dog was pretty funny as well
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:54 PM - Pat Answer: Well then you have a great night and I'll 'see' you around the forum!
Apr 11, 2016 at 10:57 PM - PeterT: Sorry. The phone rang and I had to get it. Goodnight all!!! Thanks JB!
 
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