" Unknown ", National Archives Photo 1861, Flag ID Please?

JPK Huson 1863

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#1
whole unkn.JPG

National Archives Photographs between 1860-1869 contains this from 1861, listed " Unknown ". Guessing one of our CWT members can make it known, maybe by a flag ID?

From 1861, listed as unknown in National Archives. I'd an idea this was of some quartermaster's because a massive tent is in the background. The thing is, enlarged image of the flag in front of those officers is a light square on a dark background. Flags used by the Signal Corp were dark/light background, red/white, reversed. One of each, right? Was the corps flag a plain square also or is this something else?

flag.JPG

It's a square or diamond? On a triangular flag- no idea what it is, bet around 20 members here do.

group.JPG

Group of officers in front of that huge tent- seem to be boxes in there, not beds.

group 2.JPG

Group 2, a very young man in this one.

I'm not a signed-in member able to add descriptions in National Archives, if someone knows what this is of, may wish to send them an email?
 

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John Hartwell

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It looks like the white diamond of the 3rd Corps.
White on blue would make it the 2nd Division, 3rd Corps. (the others have a dark diamond on white)
Being a triangular pennon, it would be the Division's 2nd Brigade's Headquarters flag.

BUT, if it's truly 1861, the Corps badges and flags were not yet in use. So, it must be something else altogether.
 

CWDF

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Looks like the headquarters designating flag for the 1st Brigade, 2nd Division, 3rd Army Corps. These flags followed generals around on the battlefield or were placed at their tent so messengers could find them. For more info, visit www.campcurtin.org, click on "articles of Interest" for an article on corps insignia and flags.

Here are the 3rd Army Corps flags
3rd Corps Flags.jpg
 

byron ed

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While somewhat obvious, you might focus on number of stars on the American flag. That might date range it.
Seems way too blurry and the star field folded away from view, but perhaps a clue for the determined.

Anyway so far it could be field headquarters of __________________ , 3rd Army Corps, 2nd brigade, 2nd division (to note the slightly darker "red" vertical bar on the banner) reporting to (maybe General Andrew A. Humphreys' before his transfer to the 2nd Corps?).
 
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James N.

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Looks like the headquarters designating flag for the 1st Brigade, 2nd Division, 3rd Army Corps. These flags followed generals around on the battlefield or were placed at their tent so messengers could find them. For more info, visit www.campcurtin.org, click on "articles of Interest" for an article on corps insignia and flags.

Here are the 3rd Army Corps flags
View attachment 296029
As of Chancellorsville, Sickles' Third Corps division commanders were David G. Birney; Hiram Berry, and Amiel Whipple; at Gettysburg after the heavy Chancellorsville casualties were factored in only two divisions remained, commanded by Birney and Andrew A. Humphreys. (Both Berry and Whipple were fatalities from Chancellorsville!) Humphreys' first brigade was commanded by Col. William R. Brewster; at Chancellorsville it had been Gen. Joseph Carr commanding the First Brigade of the Second Division. So this is presumably the headquarters of either Carr or Brewster, depending on exactly when in 1863 or early 1864 the photo was taken. Prior to the Wilderness Campaign the Third Corps was completely abolished, its men forming a division under Birney in Hancock's Second Corps, so it's at least sometime before that.
 
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JPK Huson 1863

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Thank you! So, not 1861 and probably Carr or Brewster, 3rd Corp- anyone have a guess where, maybe? I realize it's even more difficult ' camp in trees ' being most of the war, may be able to ascertain what state? I'm seriously not taking information elsewhere, hope is that someone will.
 

James N.

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Thank you! So, not 1861 and probably Carr or Brewster, 3rd Corp- anyone have a guess where, maybe? I realize it's even more difficult ' camp in trees ' being most of the war, may be able to ascertain what state? I'm seriously not taking information elsewhere, hope is that someone will.
It's not all that different-looking a photo from the many that were taken while Meade's army was encamped on the old Brandy Station battlefield around Fleetwood Hill in the spring of 1864 immediately before the Wilderness Campaign. I don't remember when it was that Third Corps ceased to exist, but it was probably around that same time.
 

Northern Light

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#12
1861 Flag
1552501560036.png

1863 Flag
1552501623021.png

1865 Flag
1552501767799.png

1867
1552501830205.png

My guess would be the 1867 flag as the one in the picture looks like it has more stars on the top and bottom rows.
 

byron ed

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My guess would be the 1867 flag as the one in the picture looks like it has more stars on the top and bottom rows.
1867 is two years after war's end.

And after all, discernment of year by the star pattern is not a good method for CW period because there was no Federal regulation in place that designated a pattern for the stars*



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* "...in 1818, Congress passed the 3rd of the three major flag acts. It stated that the design was to go back to the original configuration of 13 alternating stripes of red on white, representing the 13 original colonies, but that we would add one star for each new state. However, once again, it did not specify what pattern the stars should be arranged in or the amount of points that were to be on the star. So we had many variations of flag design during this time. Finally, in 1912 President Taft established the pattern of stars that we know today..." https://online.drexel.edu/flag-history.aspx
 
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Northern Light

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I
1867 is two years after war's end.

And after all, discernment of year by the star pattern is not a good method for CW period because there was no Federal regulation in place that designated a pattern for the stars*



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* "...in 1818, Congress passed the 3rd of the three major flag acts. It stated that the design was to go back to the original configuration of 13 alternating stripes of red on white, representing the 13 original colonies, but that we would add one star for each new state. However, once again, it did not specify what pattern the stars should be arranged in or the amount of points that were to be on the star. So we had many variations of flag design during this time. Finally, in 1912 President Taft established the pattern of stars that we know today..." https://online.drexel.edu/flag-history.aspx
In the opening post it says the photo is in "National Archives Photographs between 1860-,1869" . There is nothing to indicate that it taken in the Civil War of which I am aware. Regardless of the lack of regulations regarding the National Flag, as these came from a site that reflected Army flags, it may be indicative of the flags used by the army.
 

byron ed

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#15
...There is nothing to indicate that it taken in the Civil War of which I am aware...
Yet there are hints to be aware of in this photo that indicate it was taken in the Civil War. The scale and layout of the camp for one. Also we know because of the brigade banners it wasn't pre-war. The landscape doesn't suggest a post-war Indian campaign camp far out west (they primarily operated from forts out there anyway). Neither does the landscape suggest a Southern based post-war Federal reconstruction camp (where the commands were primarily established in cities, there being no field campaign). We're seeing an Eastern or Midwestern meadow landscape and soldiers with kepis (not typical for post-war Indian campaign).

But never say never, none of those hints are a slam dunk. Perhaps a post-war date for this image will come to light here. I suppose we should allow that the month or so after Appomattox counts as post -war, if this is that.
 
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