Discussion Union vs CSA Guerrilla

M.Warren

First Sergeant
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Location
Watauga Settlement
If you're interested check out this link starting with "CHAPTER XII. War Times and Afterwards." Also search the book for "James (Jim) Hartley, Kirk, and Blalock, for even more insight. It will give you an excellent look into the subject from first hand accounts of people who lived it. As I've stated before. This area of NC was a hornets nest during that time in history due to the situation in TN, Eastern NC, and the fact that every other person here had loyalties to one side or the other and by 64 the Unionist, deserted Union and Confederate guerrilla's had become very brave due to the Northern army gaining the upper hand in the war by that time and Burnside's occupation of Knoxville TN, along with the fact that other than a few homeguard, Vances soldiers were the only regular Confederate unit ordered to this area between central TN and central NC.

https://archive.org/stream/historyofwataug00arth/historyofwataug00arth_djvu.txt
 
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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Honored Fallen Comrade
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Here you go my CSA Today. Did Unionist guerrillas control territory? Where they at least as serious a threat to the CSA has CSA guerrillas where to the Union? Lets find out.
From the book "War at every door Partisan politics&guerrilla violence in East Tennessee 1860-1869 Noel Fisher Univ of North Carolina Press
P.68 In early 1862 Unionist guerrillas in Scot and Morgan Counties killed a number of secessionists burned Confederate homes took over all county offices and caused secessionists to flee to Kingston, Tn. Gen. Kirby Smith sent one thousand troops to clear out the guerrillas but when they left the guerrillas simply reasserted control(p.69). In April 1862 Gen. Smith reported that organized bands of guerrillas existed in 25 of 32 Tn counties under his control. Unionist guerrillas also attacked CSA soldiers returning to east Tn after their failed invasion of Tn.
P.79 Captain Stringfield CSA provost Martial for Carter County wrote that the people where loyal to the Union and it was dangerous to travel outside the camps. P.71 the presidents of local RR's wrote to President Davis complaining of attacks on their RR's and demanding protection. Does this sound like Unionist guerrillas just held unoccupied ground?
Leftyhunter


Save for perhaps Missouri, serious partisan warfare was limited primarily to the Appalachian and Ozark regions of the South. Numbers involved were relative few, at least, compared to armies in the field. There was no vast areas conquered and occupied by either Confederate or unionist partisans. True, there were no man lands for the Confederates in East Tennessee and elsewhere, but there were also no man lands for the unionists in the same mountains. Partisan warfare more resembled clan fighting in 16th and 17th century Scotland than warfare outside those areas of the South. Mountain partisan activity, more often than not, had more to do with local loyalties and animosities than any deep fealty to either the Confederacy or the union. A good example would the so-called Shelton Laurel massacre in Madison County, North Carolina where the state sent in men from a locally raised Confederate regiment to deal with unionist depredations in the county. The fact that those men over reached was pretty much par for the course for the time and region and could have just as easily been perpetrated by the unionist had they the upper hand at the moment.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Save for perhaps Missouri, serious partisan warfare was limited primarily to the Appalachian and Ozark regions of the South. Numbers involved were relative few, at least, compared to armies in the field. There was no vast areas conquered and occupied by either Confederate or unionist partisans. True, there were no man lands for the Confederates in East Tennessee and elsewhere, but there were also no man lands for the unionists in the same mountains. Partisan warfare more resembled clan fighting in 16th and 17th century Scotland than warfare outside those areas of the South. Mountain partisan activity, more often than not, had more to do with local loyalties and animosities than any deep fealty to either the Confederacy or the union. A good example would the so-called Shelton Laurel massacre in Madison County, North Carolina where the state sent in men from a locally raised Confederate regiment to deal with unionist depredations in the county. The fact that those men over reached was pretty much par for the course for the time and region and could have just as easily been perpetrated by the unionist had they the upper hand at the moment.
Actually has I have shown and will provide more examples their was Unionist guerrilla activity in all 11 CSA states and Ky as well. I don't know if it just resembled Scottish clan fighting since many young men from Tn risked their lives to cross over into Ky to join Unionist regiments from Tn and out of state regiments. I am not aware of Unionist guerrilla massacring children has did CSA guerrillas in Lawrence,Kn and Shelton Laurel. If one shoots and unarmed boy under 18 I would think that is not a so called massacre. Did Unionist guerrillas torture women? CSA guerrillas most definitely did.
Leftyhunter
 

M.Warren

First Sergeant
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Location
Watauga Settlement
Actually has I have shown and will provide more examples their was Unionist guerrilla activity in all 11 CSA states and Ky as well. I don't know if it just resembled Scottish clan fighting since many young men from Tn risked their lives to cross over into Ky to join Unionist regiments from Tn and out of state regiments. I am not aware of Unionist guerrilla massacring children has did CSA guerrillas in Lawrence,Kn and Shelton Laurel. If one shoots and unarmed boy under 18 I would think that is not a so called massacre. Did Unionist guerrillas torture women? CSA guerrillas most definitely did.
Leftyhunter
In the link I posted for you a few ago, there is an account of Unionist guerrillas using captured civilians and a 17 year old drummer boy, who was killed, as human shields to protect their fleeing butts from Confederate soldiers. Unionists weren't angels either my friend. Many people in that time had become so full of hate they did things they normally would have never done before.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Save for perhaps Missouri, serious partisan warfare was limited primarily to the Appalachian and Ozark regions of the South. Numbers involved were relative few, at least, compared to armies in the field. There was no vast areas conquered and occupied by either Confederate or unionist partisans. True, there were no man lands for the Confederates in East Tennessee and elsewhere, but there were also no man lands for the unionists in the same mountains. Partisan warfare more resembled clan fighting in 16th and 17th century Scotland than warfare outside those areas of the South. Mountain partisan activity, more often than not, had more to do with local loyalties and animosities than any deep fealty to either the Confederacy or the union. A good example would the so-called Shelton Laurel massacre in Madison County, North Carolina where the state sent in men from a locally raised Confederate regiment to deal with unionist depredations in the county. The fact that those men over reached was pretty much par for the course for the time and region and could have just as easily been perpetrated by the unionist had they the upper hand at the moment.
Their was Unionist guerrilla activity in Sc an SW Va. Per p.161 "Deserter bands in Greenville,Pickens and Spartansburg counties built fortifications chased of conscript companies, raided supply depots and looted and burned the property of anyone who openly supported the Confederacy". The also had the support of the population. In SW Va"J.E. Joyner noted "Montgomery, Floyd and Giles Counties wher especially infested by armed bands of deserters. "Local Unionists too aroused by Confederate home -guard depredations formed armed militias . "One unit headed by "Captain" Charles Huff regularly backed up local deserters and ambushed home guard patrols. Their was a Unionist double agent Joseph Phares who informed Huff of home guard movements while feeding misinformation to CSA officers.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Spring Hill, Tennessee
Both sides committed atrocities in this sort of warfare. Killing a woman or child is not worse than torturing and killing a wounded enemy soldier. Here is an example of a Federal Guerrilla atrocity committed on the Rebel retreat from Kentucky in October, 1862.

Horrible Barbarities of the enemy in Kentucky.

From different sources we are informed of unparalleled atrocities committed upon our helpless soldiers who were left in Kentucky, after the retreat of Gen. Bragg, by the Union bushwhackers of that State. A correspondent of the Knoxville Register details the particulars of one case—that of Willie M. Woods[1], of Col. Porter’s Tennessee regiment, who was wounded at Perryville, and had his leg broken by a wagon, and was left at the house of John Pitman, three miles beyond Loudoun [sic]. He had been there about two weeks, when a notorious Unionist named King, with five others, went to Pitman’s, tied a rope around his neck and dragged him from the bed to a wagon and threw him in, breaking his leg anew. They drove a short distance, to the nearest tree, where they hung Woods, and shot him while hanging. Woods was a native of Hawkins county, and entered the service, at the commencement of the war, under Col. Stephens. There was, also, a Mississippian named Gray at the same house who had been left sick. The same party tied a rope around his neck, and hung him to the same tree with Woods and he was buried in the same grave. Two others were hung with telegraph wire, and another soldier who was on the very verge of death was dragged out and hung.—Dispatch, 6th.”


[1] Private William M. Woods was mustered into Captain Joseph B. Freeman’s Company G on May 15, 1861. This company was in the 6th Tennessee Infantry Regiment. He was wounded severely on October 8, 1862 at the Battle of Perryville. Thirty-three year old Willie was left behind in London, Kentucky during the retreat.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
In the link I posted for you a few ago, there is an account of Unionist guerrillas using captured civilians and a 17 year old drummer boy, who was killed, as human shields to protect their fleeing butts from Confederate soldiers. Unionists weren't angels either my friend. Many people in that time had become so full of hate they did things they normally would have never done before.
If you have the time can you please re-post that link. Unionist guerrillas where not angels. On the other hand without CSA conscription for the most part the COIN war could have been avoided. Has the old saying go's" one thing leads to another".
Leftyhunter
 

M.Warren

First Sergeant
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Location
Watauga Settlement
https://archive.org/stream/historyofwataug00arth/historyofwataug00arth_djvu.txt

There you go sir. Just to make a point. The whole situation could have been avoided had be lost the revolutionary war too. Im not dealing in if ands or buts at this point. Just what did happen. Great read, I hope you enjoy it and get some good info from it Lefty. Refer to post 22 in this thread for the info on where to find the chapters and names in the book pls.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Honored Fallen Comrade
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Actually has I have shown and will provide more examples their was Unionist guerrilla activity in all 11 CSA states and Ky as well. I don't know if it just resembled Scottish clan fighting since many young men from Tn risked their lives to cross over into Ky to join Unionist regiments from Tn and out of state regiments. I am not aware of Unionist guerrilla massacring children has did CSA guerrillas in Lawrence,Kn and Shelton Laurel. If one shoots and unarmed boy under 18 I would think that is not a so called massacre. Did Unionist guerrillas torture women? CSA guerrillas most definitely did.
Leftyhunter



“Intolerable Evil”

Brigadier Rufus King, commanding Division, of Major General Irvin McDowell’s First Corps, of McClellan’s Army of the Potomac, on April 7, 1862, at Bristoe, Virginia, thirty miles southeast of Washington , issued General Orders no.36,”numerous complaints have reached division headquarters this morning of depredations upon peaceable and unoffending citizens by some of the troops in this command. The evil has grown to be intolerable. (9)


“Rape and other Crimes”

On May 16, 1862, Colonel Hermann Haupt at Potomac Creek, near Aquia Creek Station, north west Virginia, sent a dispatch to McDowell, “Guerillas are forming in various parts of the country, provoked by rape and other crimes committed by Union men. Cases have occurred in this vicinity recently of an aggravated character. (10

On the same date, McDowell, Department of the Rappahannock, opposite Fredericksburg, Virginia, threatened in General Orders no.12, “Some of the few men among us who are evilly disposed have attempted the commission of a crime which will justly draw upon the troops universal condemnation. The punishment for rape will be death, and any violence offered a female, white or colored, with the intent… to commit rape will be considered as one and punished accordingly. (11)


“Ravages”

Later in a Court of Inquiry into charges against McDowell, in Washington, during testimony of Brigadier general Hermann Haupt about events while he was charge of rebuilding the Aquia and Fredericksburg Railroad from the Potomac to Falmouth. McDowell questioned him, “what acts of violence on the women of the country came to your knowledge near Fredericksburg?” (12)

Haupt answered:

I reported one case, which occurred within three miles of Potomac Bridge. A rape upon the daughter of a farmer who had tended me material assistance in searching for timber…I inquired of the parents in regards to the facts, and found that the act had been perpetrated by one of the numerous stragglers who were continually passing through the country… and from those ravages not a single farm-house in the vicinity of the road was exempt when guarded, and not always even then. (13)

Source: Thomas Bland Keys, The Uncivil War: Union Army and Navy Excesses in the Official Records, pp. 18-19.

(9) OR, vol. XII, pt.III:54.

(10) Ibid., 196.

(11) OR, ser. II, vol. III: 545.

(12) OR, vol. XII, pt. I: 78.

(13) Ibid.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
“Intolerable Evil”

Brigadier Rufus King, commanding Division, of Major General Irvin McDowell’s First Corps, of McClellan’s Army of the Potomac, on April 7, 1862, at Bristoe, Virginia, thirty miles southeast of Washington , issued General Orders no.36,”numerous complaints have reached division headquarters this morning of depredations upon peaceable and unoffending citizens by some of the troops in this command. The evil has grown to be intolerable. (9)


“Rape and other Crimes”

On May 16, 1862, Colonel Hermann Haupt at Potomac Creek, near Aquia Creek Station, north west Virginia, sent a dispatch to McDowell, “Guerillas are forming in various parts of the country, provoked by rape and other crimes committed by Union men. Cases have occurred in this vicinity recently of an aggravated character. (10

On the same date, McDowell, Department of the Rappahannock, opposite Fredericksburg, Virginia, threatened in General Orders no.12, “Some of the few men among us who are evilly disposed have attempted the commission of a crime which will justly draw upon the troops universal condemnation. The punishment for rape will be death, and any violence offered a female, white or colored, with the intent… to commit rape will be considered as one and punished accordingly. (11)


“Ravages”

Later in a Court of Inquiry into charges against McDowell, in Washington, during testimony of Brigadier general Hermann Haupt about events while he was charge of rebuilding the Aquia and Fredericksburg Railroad from the Potomac to Falmouth. McDowell questioned him, “what acts of violence on the women of the country came to your knowledge near Fredericksburg?” (12)

Haupt answered:

I reported one case, which occurred within three miles of Potomac Bridge. A rape upon the daughter of a farmer who had tended me material assistance in searching for timber…I inquired of the parents in regards to the facts, and found that the act had been perpetrated by one of the numerous stragglers who were continually passing through the country… and from those ravages not a single farm-house in the vicinity of the road was exempt when guarded, and not always even then. (13)

Source: Thomas Bland Keys, The Uncivil War: Union Army and Navy Excesses in the Official Records, pp. 18-19.

(9) OR, vol. XII, pt.III:54.

(10) Ibid., 196.

(11) OR, ser. II, vol. III: 545.

(12) OR, vol. XII, pt. I: 78.

(13) Ibid.
No doubt crimes where committed especially rape by both sides. my thread is not about rape by conventional Union troops that as been already covered in threads posted by at least a few others. The subject of rape as been well discussed by others. The purpose of my thread is addressed in post #1. My point was did Unionist guerrillas deliberately kill children as did some CSA guerrillas has previously pointed out. M. Warren indicated that on one occasion they did. Hopefully when he has the time he will send me the link. Has myself and other posters have pointed out yes the union military did commit crimes against civilians but compared to other militaries before during and long since th CW they appear to be on the low end of the spectrum.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Save for perhaps Missouri, serious partisan warfare was limited primarily to the Appalachian and Ozark regions of the South. Numbers involved were relative few, at least, compared to armies in the field. There was no vast areas conquered and occupied by either Confederate or unionist partisans. True, there were no man lands for the Confederates in East Tennessee and elsewhere, but there were also no man lands for the unionists in the same mountains. Partisan warfare more resembled clan fighting in 16th and 17th century Scotland than warfare outside those areas of the South. Mountain partisan activity, more often than not, had more to do with local loyalties and animosities than any deep fealty to either the Confederacy or the union. A good example would the so-called Shelton Laurel massacre in Madison County, North Carolina where the state sent in men from a locally raised Confederate regiment to deal with unionist depredations in the county. The fact that those men over reached was pretty much par for the course for the time and region and could have just as easily been perpetrated by the unionist had they the upper hand at the moment.
I am going to have to respectfully disagre with the notion that Unionist guerrilla warfare was all that similar to Scottish clan fighting. It appera to be far better organized on the whole and many of the guerrillas where not related by blood.
From the book "Junius and Alberts adventures in the Confederacya Civil War odyssey by Peter Carlson publicaffairs.com p.170-171
"Deserters now leave the army with arms and ammunition in hand"per a report by george W. Lay a conscription agent in western Nc."Arriving in their selected localities of refuge, they organize in bands variously estimated at from 50 up to hundred at various points.. In Wilkies County they are organized,drilling regularly and entrenched in a camp up to the number of 500". "These men are not only determined to kill in avoiding apprehension)having put to death yet another of our enrolling officers) but their esprit de corpse extends to revenge killing as well." That does not sound like a family dispute more like a group of determined guerrilla fighter.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
If you're interested check out this link starting with "CHAPTER XII. War Times and Afterwards." Also search the book for "James (Jim) Hartley, Kirk, and Blalock, for even more insight. It will give you an excellent look into the subject from first hand accounts of people who lived it. As I've stated before. This area of NC was a hornets nest during that time in history due to the situation in TN, Eastern NC, and the fact that every other person here had loyalties to one side or the other and by 64 the Unionist and deserted Confederate guerrilla's had become very brave due to the Northern army gaining the upper hand in the war by that time and Burnside's occupation of Knoxville TN, along with the fact that other than a few homeguard, Vances soldiers were the only regular Confederate unit ordered to this area between central TN and central NC.

https://archive.org/stream/historyofwataug00arth/historyofwataug00arth_djvu.txt
I failed to notice your re posting I will try to fix that.
Leftyhunter
 

M.Warren

First Sergeant
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Location
Watauga Settlement
Just to add a bit of personal info on it. I originally found the book because my Wife's 3rd Great Grandfather was Cpt. Elijah J Norris 58th NC Infantry, and her 4th gGrandfather Ephrium Norris, Elijah's father was shot in the back by Stonemans men in Boone NC 1865. He was an elderly man at that time and no harm to anyone.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
https://archive.org/stream/historyofwataug00arth/historyofwataug00arth_djvu.txt

There you go sir. Just to make a point. The whole situation could have been avoided had be lost the revolutionary war too. Im not dealing in if ands or buts at this point. Just what did happen. Great read, I hope you enjoy it and get some good info from it Lefty. Refer to post 22 in this thread for the info on where to find the chapters and names in the book pls.
Wow it took a little while to find chapter XII. Here's what I got for my fellow posters but by no means did I read the whole link I will try later. In Watttagua County Nc approx 1k men joined the CSA vs 100 the Union which sounds right thats the same ratio has Current comes up with in "Lincolns Loyalists. Numerous deserters from Tn,Va and Ga arrived by the spring of 1864. Gov Vance had to form a Home Guard of all men 18 to 50 which means these same men can't be in the conventional CSA Army so we have to count that as a win for the Unionists. By April 1864 Gen. McEllroy wrote to Gov.Vance " The county has gone up and there was determination on part of the people generally to do no more service in the cause"
Col. Kirk commander of the 3rd Nc Mounted Inf USV monted a raid that had a fair amount of sucess against Camp Vance resulting in the capture of 1,200 arms and gained 40 recruits and 276 prisoners. They where chased back into Union controlled Tn and one drummer was killed and one 17 year old was wounded. Not a bad loss of prisoners considering the circumstances. Did Col.Kirk deliberately shot a boy to death? I say no and where was he supposed to put the prisoners in the front where if they rebel they block his men's retreat or use them in the rear to protect his troops from hostile fire? I would argue Kirk did right by his men. Both Union forces and Confederate forces that may of been unofficial led by a Col.Vaughn where worse then the Union forces. Good info and others are more then welcome to post from this source.
Leftyhunter
 

M.Warren

First Sergeant
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Location
Watauga Settlement
Gov Vance had to form a Home Guard of all men 18 to 50 which means these same men can't be in the conventional CSA Army so we have to count that as a win for the Unionists.
Better finish reading that Lefty. The homeguard were either too old or too young for conscription, or wounded men home on furlough which was the case of my Wifes 3rd Great Grandfather Cpt. E.J. Norris after he'd been wounded 4 times in combat. Those Unionist guerrilla's got their butts kicked by kids, old men and cripples.. :rolleyes: This info is in the same chapter. I know for a fact. I've read that book so many times I can quote most of it.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Just to add a bit of personal info on it. I originally found the book because my Wife's 3rd Great Grandfather was Cpt. Elijah J Norris 58th NC Infantry, and her 4th gGrandfather Ephrium Norris, Elijah's father was shot in the back by Stonemans men in Boone NC 1865. He was an elderly man at that time and no harm to anyone.
Its hard enough to judge if a police shooting is right or wrong . Has for Elijahs father I was not there and back then they did not do investigations over shooting has we do now with police and security shootings. You could be right in COIN war stuff happens a lot. It wouldn't be the first or last unjustified shooting by any military in a COIN war situation.
Leftyhunter
 

M.Warren

First Sergeant
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Location
Watauga Settlement
Its hard enough to judge if a police shooting is right or wrong . Has for Elijahs father I was not there and back then they did not do investigations over shooting has we do now with police and security shootings. You could be right in COIN war stuff happens a lot. It wouldn't be the first or last unjustified shooting by any military in a COIN war situation.
Leftyhunter
The account of the Union soldier is also in the book. Ephrium was working in a field with a free Black woman, ran when he was fired on, to his house and shot in the back pleading for his life. She(the free black lady) also backs up the story in the book. I think her name was Horton.
 
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