cake1979
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- Aug 30, 2019
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Amen! That said, I am learning a lot about Grant from this thread. Need to do a little more reading......And... I think his drinking is overrated!
Amen! That said, I am learning a lot about Grant from this thread. Need to do a little more reading......And... I think his drinking is overrated!
Amen! That said, I am learning a lot about Grant from this thread. Need to do a little more reading......
My conclusion about Grant and drinking based on numerous accounts and biographies I have read over time is this. Despite Grant's fondness for alcohol, his drinking was generally kept in check during the ACW, particularly by his wife, and the likes of John Rawlins. There were probably one or two incidents during the war when Grant went off on a binder, but these were carefully contained by his minders, and did not result in adverse consequences to Grant and the war effort.
Never happened.The worst example is probably Iuka, where news of Antietam had Grant go on a bender whilst his forces were moving to an engagement. The result was that half the army under Rosecrans attacked, whilst the half under Grant in person did nothing due to no orders.
Thanks for the suggestion! How’s Chernow’s book on Grant? Might go on a binge......Check out "American Ulysses" by Ronald White. I'm reading it now. Excellent on Grant's early years and his personal interests and development.
That’s the first I’ve heard that drinking had anything to do with the failures at Iuka. Most sources (except Varney) pin it all on Rosecrans, as noted before. Any sources for that one? Just curious.The worst example is probably Iuka, where news of Antietam had Grant go on a bender whilst his forces were moving to an engagement. The result was that half the army under Rosecrans attacked, whilst the half under Grant in person did nothing due to no orders.
Thanks for the suggestion! How’s Chernow’s book on Grant? Might go on a binge......
No, actually it's not a "direct quote." The source is John Eaton.That's actually a direct quote from him - "The vice of intemperance had not a little to do with my decision to resign".
Well, Eaton is the source, but he says that it's what Grant said. My understanding of the definition of "direct quote" is that it's the actual words of the person, not that the source is the person; it would only not count as a "direct quote" if there was a strong reason to believe Eaton was making it up.No, actually it's not a "direct quote." The source is John Eaton.
The Eaton quote is similar to others. I think Grant once told someone, at times he could drink and suffer very little. But at other times he would drink and couldn't stop. What the quotes describe is a heavy coffee drinker, without access to clean water, who is chronically dehydrated at times. There were banquets in which Grant did not feel safe, and he refused all the wine. Seems to me he knew he had a problem and got better at managing it with age.Well, Eaton is the source, but he says that it's what Grant said. My understanding of the definition of "direct quote" is that it's the actual words of the person, not that the source is the person; it would only not count as a "direct quote" if there was a strong reason to believe Eaton was making it up.
As I noted, time had run out by July 31, 1864. The north had about 90 days to prove they were winning the war. Lincoln and Fox met with Grant and Rawlins. Things were said that were too secret to put on the wire, and harsh words were exchanged about Halleck and Stanton. Stanton, Halleck, Wells and even Seward were cut out of the meeting. What followed?
As Bruce Catton put it, neither Lincoln or Grant spoke afterwards about this meeting, but it obviously had to do with questions of the command structure in the east:Grant had the meeting alone with Lincoln. It was apparently not a pleasant one for him, as he excised it from his memoirs.
The primary topic seems to have been how Grant allowed Washington almost to fall. Halleck had forced Grant to send large forces from Grant's army to Washington, and Washington had narrowly been saved by the actions of Henry Halleck, Quincy Gillmore, Lew Wallace and James Ricketts. It was not lost on many that if Grant's orders had been followed, then Washington likely would have fallen.
Lincoln had let Grant run until about two weeks before this meeting, when Grant's message that he intended to abandon the Siege of Petersburg was rebuffed by Lincoln. In July, patience with Grant is up, and Lincoln starts asserting himself.
Fox was there, so he was the one that informed Grant of the high level information that Farragut was ready. The subsequent weeks suggest that Grant and Lincoln discussed a possible offer of peace. Grant seems to have been against that, and that may have cautioned Lincoln that no offer should be made unless McClellan actually won.As Bruce Catton put it, neither Lincoln or Grant spoke afterwards about this meeting, but it obviously had to do with questions of the command structure in the east:
Neither Lincoln nor Grant ever said much about their July 31 meeting, but what took place is fairly clear. On July 30 Grant had telegraphed to the President, promising to meet him at Fort Monroe the next day, and on the back of this telegram Lincoln scribbled a few words that could only be a listing of the points to be discussed. These words were: "Meade & Franklin / McClellan / Md & Penna."
That McClellan was not offered any command after the meeting indicates that both Lincoln and Grant agreed bringing him back was a bad idea.
Shortly after this meeting, Grant sent Sheridan north to deal with Early. Both Halleck and Stanton opposed giving Sheridan command, but Lincoln saw Grants dispatches and agreed with Grant. This shows the amount of trust Lincoln had in Grant.
There is a lot of evidence that Grant drank heavily when he did drink. But he also was aware of the problem and tolerated the interference both of Rawlins and Mrs. Grant.