Muzzleldrs Tubelock

x17729

Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
I was hoping to get more info on this muzzleloader. It be great if Don Dixon could chime in.
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Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
Its a Muster 1849 Kammerbüchse in the original Austrian Army tubelock configuration, rather than one of the percussion transformations that was shipped over to America during he Civil War. Looks like a nice piece. What are your questions regarding it?

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

x17729

Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Its stamped g.b on the r. side of the barrel and i.w. on the left side.. And there markings on the butt plate and on the top of the barrel in the photos. So, in your opinion you think this is not a civil war issue. Yes, the condition is excellent. Also, do you think it had brass barrel mounts like ive seen on other tubelocks? Thank you so very very much for replying Don. Also,would it of had a bayonet or otherwise does it look all original.
 
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Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
John,

Your Kammerbüchse looks completely original to me. The iron barrel band is correct, while all the rest of the metal furniture on them was brass.

Other than unit and manufacturers markings, telling you what the markings on the rifle mean is impossible. They are undoubtedly assembly, inspectors', and proof markings, but even the curator and master restoration gunsmith at the Austrian Army Museum didn't have a crib sheet for them.

Unit Markings: If the firearm was issued, it was to be marked by the battalion gunsmith with unit and inventory numbers placed at the following locations on the weapon:
  • On the barrel at the head of the powder chamber and forward of the chamber section.
  • On the ramrod: on the Kammerbüchse under the bullet setter.
  • On the buttplate under the upper buttplate screw.
Your photo of the upper part of the buttplate is fuzzy, but I think I see a "1" and a "9." That probably means the 9th Kammerbüchse assigned to the 1st Kaiserjäger battalion.

Bentz is the mark of Gottlieb Bentz. Bentz was born in 1801, took over his father’s arms manufacturing business in 1836, and became a master gunmaker in 1837; operating a workshop in Wilhelmsburg. His wife. Aloisia Bentz, continued the business at Kaiserstr. 73-75, Vienna, after his death on 30 March 1858.

Unless you have Civil War provenance for it -- which I would be very interested in -- it probably wasn't carried in the war. The only untransformed tubelocks that I know for sure were imported were 25,000 Muster 1842 and 1840 smoothbore infantry muskets imported by Kruse, Drexel, and Schmidt of New York City and sold to MG Fremont for use in the Western Department. Most of those were subsequently transformed to percussion.

It would have been equipped with a sword bayonet, approximately 28 to 30 inches long, with a locking ring collar. There are several variations.

I hope this is useful.
Don
 
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x17729

Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Thanks again Don. I seen somewhere that they initaled States on some of these guns. I wonder if the i.w stands for Iowa which is the state I live? Thank You so much. The wood grain on the stock is beautiful. Do you know what kind it is?
 

Banjo Pete

Private
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
The Hungarian gent who runs the wonderful capandball.eu YouTube channel has an instructional video where he shows how to make primer tubes by cutting up beer/soda cans into small strips and rolling them up with priming compound inside. Works great !
 

x17729

Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Thanks again Don. I seen somewhere that they initaled States on some of these guns. I wonder if the i.w stands for Iowa which is the state I live? Thank You so much. The wood grain on the stock is beautiful. Do you know what kind wood it is?
I also wonder if the g.b on the right side ( which there's no photo )is for Garibaldi. Thanks again. I have no provenance as of yet. I need to do some more research. Now that I did more research and am editing I doubt the i.w meant iowa, but the g.b is possibly for Garibaldi.
 
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x17729

Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
John,

Your Kammerbüchse looks completely original to me. The iron barrel band is correct, while all the rest of the metal furniture on them was brass.

Other than unit and manufacturers markings, telling you what the markings on the rifle mean is impossible. They are undoubtedly assembly, inspectors', and proof markings, but even the curator and master restoration gunsmith at the Austrian Army Museum didn't have a crib sheet for them.

Unit Markings: If the firearm was issued, it was to be marked by the battalion gunsmith with unit and inventory numbers placed at the following locations on the weapon:
  • On the barrel at the head of the powder chamber and forward of the chamber section.
  • On the ramrod: on the Kammerbüchse under the bullet setter.
  • On the buttplate under the upper buttplate screw.
Your photo of the upper part of the buttplate is fuzzy, but I think I see a "1" and a "9." That probably means the 9th Kammerbüchse assigned to the 1st Kaiserjäger battalion.

Bentz is the mark of Gottlieb Bentz. Bentz was born in 1801, took over his father’s arms manufacturing business in 1836, and became a master gunmaker in 1837; operating a workshop in Wilhelmsburg. His wife. Aloisia Bentz, continued the business at Kaiserstr. 73-75, Vienna, after his death on 30 March 1858.

Unless you have Civil War provenance for it -- which I would be very interested in -- it probably wasn't carried in the war. The only untransformed tubelocks that I know for sure were imported were 25,000 Muster 1842 and 1840 smoothbore infantry muskets imported by Kruse, Drexel, and Schmidt of New York City and sold to MG Fremont for use in the Western Department. Most of those were subsequently transformed to percussion.

It would have been equipped with a sword bayonet, approximately 28 to 30 inches long, with a locking ring collar. There are several variations.

I hope this is useful.
Don
Sorry to bother you again. I'm not sure if my post went to you about the g.b initials standing for Garbidali and about the type of wood that the stock is made of. I have to wonder if this is one of the guns that was captured in northern Italy. Eventually I'm probably going to sell this gun if your interested. The condition for it's age is outstanding as you can see.
 

Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
Sorry to bother you again. I'm not sure if my post went to you about the g.b initials standing for Garbidali and about the type of wood that the stock is made of. I have to wonder if this is one of the guns that was captured in northern Italy. Eventually I'm probably going to sell this gun if your interested. The condition for it's age is outstanding as you can see.

As best I can determine, General Garibaldi's troops never carried Kammerbüchse in any of their Italian campaigns. How Kammerbüchse came to be called "Garibaldi's" is unknown, and is an American affectation which began in late 1861. Gun dealer hype? So, the "g.b." stamp on your rifle has nothing to do Garibaldi or the rifles being called [incorrectly] "Garibaldi's."

Kammerbüchse stocks were manufactured from European Red Beech.

The Imperial French Army and the Sardinian Army captured a lot of k.k. Army materiel in northern Italy during the Second italian War of Independence in 1859. Exactly what happened to it is unclear, since governments tend to obscure their participation in gun running, but I suspect that a lot of it ended up over here - through various channels - during the Civil War.

Thank you, but I'm not interested in a purchase of the rifle. I wanted an example of an untransformed tubelock for study, and purchased a tubelock Muster 1844 Kammerbüchse some time ago.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

x17729

Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
As best I can determine, General Garibaldi's troops never carried Kammerbüchse in any of their Italian campaigns. How Kammerbüchse came to be called "Garibaldi's" is unknown, and is an American affectation which began in late 1861. Gun dealer hype? So, the "g.b." stamp on your rifle has nothing to do Garibaldi or the rifles being called [incorrectly] "Garibaldi's."

Kammerbüchse stocks were manufactured from European Red Beech.

The Imperial French Army and the Sardinian Army captured a lot of k.k. Army materiel in northern Italy during the Second italian War of Independence in 1859. Exactly what happened to it is unclear, since governments tend to obscure their participation in gun running, but I suspect that a lot of it ended up over here - through various channels - during the Civil War.

Thank you, but I'm not interested in a purchase of the rifle. I wanted an example of an untransformed tubelock for study, and purchased a tubelock Muster 1844 Kammerbüchse some time ago.

Regards,
Don Dixon
Thanks again Don. The under side of the butt of the stock is stamped 3/35 any idea what that tells about the gun, if anything. Thank You so much again. You have been so helpful. And also got me to learn a little European history by doing my own research on this weapon. Thanks again. Brian
 

x17729

Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
As best I can determine, General Garibaldi's troops never carried Kammerbüchse in any of their Italian campaigns. How Kammerbüchse came to be called "Garibaldi's" is unknown, and is an American affectation which began in late 1861. Gun dealer hype? So, the "g.b." stamp on your rifle has nothing to do Garibaldi or the rifles being called [incorrectly] "Garibaldi's."

Kammerbüchse stocks were manufactured from European Red Beech.

The Imperial French Army and the Sardinian Army captured a lot of k.k. Army materiel in northern Italy during the Second italian War of Independence in 1859. Exactly what happened to it is unclear, since governments tend to obscure their participation in gun running, but I suspect that a lot of it ended up over here - through various channels - during the Civil War.

Thank you, but I'm not interested in a purchase of the rifle. I wanted an example of an untransformed tubelock for study, and purchased a tubelock Muster 1844 Kammerbüchse some time ago.

Regards,
Don Dixon
I like your your statement about government participation in gun running. The name Oliver North comes to mind. LoL
 
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